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Re: Halo Wars & Halo 4: That "Halo" feeling *vids*
Posted By: DarkReign2021 <DarkReign2021@yahoo.com>	Date: 3/1/13 1:29 a.m.
In Response To: Halo Wars & Halo 4: That "Halo" feeling *vids* (Revenant1988) : I don't have a blog like pete so I have only here to vent. It is pretty long : but it was a slow day at work so my mind wandered. There is a TL;DR at the : bottom if you like. : : Spartan Ops and the story's ending : 343's 2/27 Halo Bulletin really struck a chord with me today. With : specific regard to Spartan Ops, somethings have been inferred about their : story telling. Perhaps that it seems they write fast and loose, or maybe : there's an idea but instead of it being clear and tangible its instead : fuzzy and uncertain. : Personally I don't know, and the fact is that none us of do. That can be : really frustrating. Today it felt like some of the mystery was lost. As : its already been pointed out, we don't really know that Bungie had some : sort of "master plan" from the get go. We do know that the plan : saw many changes and tweaks throughout its 10 years. : Is it possible that the Halo that Bungie conceived 10 years ago stayed true : to form and wound up where they thought it would? Possibly, but highly : unlikely. Fragments, and points here or there may resemble the original : concept but I think its been vocalized before that no one, not even Bungie : had any idea on just how "big" Halo would become. : Maybe I should have seen some of this coming, the "this" being that : moment when a franchise hits that sort of.... critical mass moment when it : begins to collapse into itself, be it a little, a lot, or completely (I've : experienced this with all sorts of other things, movies, comics, multiple : tv shows). That's the feeling I've been wrestling with lately with Halo as : it sits currently. : Is that an apt description? Do any of you feel similar? : This "critical mass" is not necessarily a bad thing, and I mean : that. For me its like the franchise has fallen into itself a little.... : lost its way. It's found new and exciting things and at the same time made : new mistakes, mistakes that weren't expected of it. : Maybe it should be expected- there is a new studio at the helm after all. It : takes time to get barrings and to learn the ropes. Even though there is so : much experience with that team its perfectly reasonable for them to trip : and falter here and there. Maybe we see them a little less graceful than : Bungie. Then again, we are pretty spoiled (the "we" being the : larger community, not just HBO). Transitions can be hard. I know this, : just from real life. : It can be hard moving to a new place. : It can be hard changing jobs. : It can be hard making new friends. : It can be hard adjusting to a new boss or manager or team. : Why didn't I see more of this coming with 343? I sort of did back when the : announcement was made a few years ago, yet its only resonating with me : now. Lest I forget, hindsight is, always 20/20 . : : Back to the bulletin, and the part that sparked this, was the insight into : the writing process for SPOPS. Maybe what rubbed me the wrong way was the : wording of it... the attitude that I perceived. To analyze the paragraph : from the bulletin: "We couldn’t figure out how the story ended. Room : full of smart people, all with storytelling skills and the resumes to : prove it , and we could not tie a bow on this story in the outline : stage." : Firstly, struggling to come up with a great ending for anything is : understandable, and I sympathize here because anyone who's seriously : written something, even if its just an essay for a classroom assignment : knows how tough it can be. What I didn't like in that quote that perplexed : me was the bolded section. : Secondly, why are you telling me that you've got a room full of writers with : skills and resumes to "prove" it? Was that to make me empathize : with you? Because if it was, I already did when you simply said you had : trouble coming up with a solid ending. Tacking on that you had a room full : of people with "resumes and skills" to prove it threw that : empathy out the window. It felt.... arrogant to me, which made the next : line all the more irritating: "Then Frank O’Connor says, “Maybe Jul : just drives Requiem into the sun.” And we all laughed, because that was so : wonderfully absurd. " : Yeah, that is kinda dumb. I'm glad you guys were able to joke around so- : wait, what- : "A half hour later we still didn’t have an idea of how the Requiem : adventure ended. Eventually we let Jul drive Requiem into the sun because, : come on. That’s pretty awesome, throwing planets into suns." : Really? First: "A half hour later"? - I hope you are just joking : about that because if thats actually all the time spent after he said it : before you were off to the races then that is really sad. Hell, maybe it : is the truth because going forward with that idea of throwing it into the : sun because it sounded "pretty awesome" is probably accurate to : how much time was needed to really flesh out that idea in the first place. : *rolls eyes* : Here's the thing, 343, if that was how it all went down, fine- but my advice : would be to never, ever-never tell the fanbase that sort of thing when you : are being watched so closely or when your stewardship of the series is in : question. Terrible PR move. That's a story you can tell 10 years later, : but not right now- There are still stories we haven't even heard from : Bungie at this point with Halo's development and its possible they could : be just as goofy as yours- the difference is they still retain their : mystery by saving it for a better time- you just blew yours. : If you've read this far, you might be asking "Rev, why are you fixating : on this paragraph so much?" The reason my friend, is that paragraph : just set the tone for me about how confident I am in 343's writing ability : for the rest of the trilogy. That feeling isn't set in stone, but they : just undid what confidence I did have. And I don't think that is unfounded : or unreasonable. If you're about to write to me about why I'm wrong- : please tell me you didn't roll your eyes or something when you read that : section, that you didn't have some kind of reaction. That was a poorly : worded paragraph that never should have been in that bulletin. It wasn't : cute, and it wasn't funny. I found it alarming. : That "Halo" feeling : After all this I started wracking my brain trying to put a finger on why : 343's Halo 4 doesn't feel like a "Halo" game to me from a : narrative stand point. After all, I like the personal story they wrote for : Chief and Cortana, and while the ending scene for those two was shrouded : in ambiguity, I did feel attachment to the characters that I felt when : Bungie was writing them. : But I didn't feel any attachment to the other characters... : Well that's unfortunate. Maybe it was because a new and different studio had : written them? : Actually that can't be right because I loved the majority of characters in : Halo Wars, and that was a different studio and a whole different genre! : Maybe the writing team lacked "Halo writing" experience? : No, that's not it because Frankie was a writer during Halo 3 and Halo 2 if I : recall correctly so he should know what things to focus on. : Maybe it was all the new things that 343 introduced that Bungie never did? : No, that isn't it either because again, Halo Wars introduced all kinds of : things into the universe that fit surprisingly well, things that I could : imagine being in a "Bungie Halo". : As I thought about these things I decided to look up some Halo Wars videos I : remembered, and after watching them it clicked for me again. In this 3 : part series on the development of Halo Wars I remember them putting my : mind at ease when I was nervous about another studio doing a Halo game. : All the developers in those videos showed that they not only cared about : gameplay, but about the story and the lore that had come before them. : They were so careful to take care and respect the old while planting seeds : for the new things and I still maintain, to this day, that they did one : helluva job. Watch these three videos and see what you think. (They've : been posted before years ago but I think they are worth a re-visit) : Halo Universe Expanded #1 : : Halo Universe Expanded #2 : : Halo Universe Expanded #3 : : Watching these 3 videos gave me goosbumps. I felt like throwing Halo in and : going to play right then and there while I was at work. Ensemble was a : totally different studio and they managed to take all the things that I : love about the first person narrative in Halo 1-3 and put it into an RTS. : -The dialogue was good : -The characters felt important and I cared about them : -The other Spartans FELT like Spartans, and while you never saw their faces : you could still tell they were different from the Chief : -The villains were compelling and interesting : -The new assets felt like they belonged, even ones that were somewhat radical : in appearance. : - The story wasn't trying to do too much at once : : It was weird seeing Frankie in these videos saying things that I wish he had : said more during Halo 4's development. Clearly the Forerunners are : something he's wanted to explore and its nice that we are getting to do : that in this trilogy but Halo 4 was all over the place in that regard. : In fact, Halo 4 to me felt like it had bitten off more than it could chew, : like it was trying to do too much at once when if they had focused just a : tiny bit better on the smaller conflict with the Chief and Didact that it : might have been better overall, instead of trying to cover the : Forerunners, the Didact and Librarian, the Chief and Cortana, the Spartan : 4's, Infinity, Del Rio, Palmer and Lasky and lastly the remnants of the : Covenant. : It was like going to a buffet and getting to sample a bunch of different : little sandwich samples but never getting full or satisfied than if they : had given you maybe two or three larger courses to round out the meal. : Halo Wars didn't have that and it was written by a different studio. The : story was contained enough to the task at hand while still hitting and : touching the other flavors of the Forerunner armada and the Flood : contamination on the installation. : The other thing they did really well was making the cut scenes and in-game : objective dialogue fit with the gameplay, AND they were able to do this : while maintaining that "sky" or "god" perspective that : an RTS requires. I think that is most impressive and something that : Spartan OPs and the Terminals from Halo 4 lacked- they didn't connect well : to everything else and while solid individually fell short combined : because of it. : Watching these videos was therapeutic in a sense for me because maybe : somewhere Frainke and the gang will see them and... I don't know... : tighten up. Maybe the halo Franchise is less like a core that hit critical : mass and more like a phoenix rising from the ashes. Maybe Halo 4 and : Spartan Ops was a step back in many areas - but NECESSARY steps : backwards. A chance to change directions and be reborn. I just wish it : looked like they hadn't fallen backwards down those steps! : If you've never played Halo Wars, I really, really advocate that you give it : a try, rent it or borrow it, whatever. Play it on easy with all the buff : skulls and just digest the story. That story is the only other game : example we have of a non-Bungie Halo and they got so many things right : that 343 would be wise to approach it as they did. You don't have anything : to lose by testing it out. : Maybe I'm being a bit harsh towards 343. If I am, then I am sorry, its only : because I'm frustrated. halo 4 is fun to play but its sloppy in important : areas. : I don't know if we'll ever see a Halo Wars 2 but at least when Halo Wars blew : up their sun it made sense due to them being in a dyson sphere. As : Loftus so eloquently put it to me one night on XBL "Requiem being : pulled into a nearby sun was like flicking a frozen pea at a beach ball, : except the beach ball wasn't there earlier". And for godsake, don't : tell people that you came up with it in 30 min because you couldn't think : of anything better. : TL;DR : 343 seems all over the place and the bulletin from yesterday only made that : clear to me with their comments on how they wrote the ending for SPOPS. : It showed a lack of enthusiasm and taking the easy way out, even if it didn't : make sense and they were proud of it, something I never felt with : Bungie. : Ensemble, the studio behind Halo Wars was also new to the Halo franchise and : they nailed all the things that I wish 343 had taken the time to do : instead. : Watching the 3 "behind the scene" clips only reinforced that : feeling for me. Combat Evolved never felt like it was trying to do too : much at once (ok, maybe Halo 2 did) and that really set the tone for the : rest of the trilogy. Halo Wars also manged to deliver a solid and coherent : story with room to grow while being developed by an outside studio. 343 : could learn a lot by taking a page out of their playbook. : A great Halo game doesn't have to always come from Bungie, it just needs to : come from someone who takes care of the old while adding the new, while : maintaining that sense of mystery. : -Rev : Not trying to ruffle any feathers I swear This is an argument I feel can go both ways. 343 is definitely playing fastball. That much is made apparent with the weekly bulletin. Unfortunately these kinds of things happen and maybe they felt it was a more effective means of telling this type of story. They played this game with Spartan Ops, but that's not necessarily suggesting this is how they work with the Campaigns, live-action web series, etc... Even so, it's still no excuse to not put as much care and effort into one playmode as you would any other. They are experienced developers in their respective fields, but they're helming a completely new team and the work ethic seemingly hasn't settled itself in. It feels almost like 343 is trying to be too much like the publicized Bungie that the community adores. The crazy team of goofy people joking around, pulling pranks, and presenting a generally more relaxed environment than you see in most other development studios. They go to meetings and throw out last minute ideas to write about and while things like Frankie having a cameo in FUD is cool, it's obvious there are things that his time would've been better spent on. Not to say having fun is a bad thing and I invite any and all developers to take a more Bungie-cized approach to the gaming industry, but you have to know how an element like that works and you have to know when there's time to goof around and when it's time to work (and obviously, goofing around brainstorming ideas when the finale is due out in less than a month is not a good idea.) When they announced Spartan Ops months ago, they should've had a general idea of their plot, which I imagine they did. Than when Halo 4 hit shelves and Episode 1 was available from the start, they should've already had the plot and details mapped out for the entire season and at LEAST a rough draft of where they're going to take Season 2. Particularly in a field where sequels are present, planning ahead is an absolute necessity. One thing I've always been left to wonder in regards to Bungie is just how extensive the Halo Bible really is. I remember years ago (I'm talking Halo 2 still in development) Staten commenting about the Halo Bible having years and years of content mapped out. If that's the case, does that mean Bungie planned as far ahead as the general events of Halo 4, 5 , & 6? or is 343 left to flesh out the details on their own? I know elements of current lore can be traced back to past games in the series (The Forerunner Terminals in H3 and even dialog stated in Halo: Combat Evolved and stated in Dietz's 'Halo: The Flood' alluded to elements that are only now coming into play in the series, but I have to wonder if Bungie ever intended for Dr. Halsey to become a "monster" or if Humanity would ever be endangered by a rogue Forerunner. Fortunately for Ensemble with Halo Wars, the development of this games storyline was very basic. Unlike the above question regarding the Bible, we know for certain a lot of base details involved in HW pre-existed. The fall and retaking of Harvest, the existence of Shield Worlds, the use of the Prophet of Regret on the field, the existence of an Arbiter, etc... The only thing thing they really had to worry about regarding story were the small details in-between. Fleshing out characters, creating small details to bring the worlds to life, and designing vehicles and units that would fit the Halo tradition. Gameplay was solid, objectives were simple and concise, and they got done what needed to be done. Getting back to 343 and Halo 4, Frankie did comment a few weeks ago that they had learned a lot from publishing their first actual game and they know what they did well and where they still need to work on improving, I hope this includes their storyboard designing among other things. I really hope to see Spartan Ops Episode 2 and really look forward playing Halo 5 and Halo 6 when the time comes. I don't want to see the series end on a bad note. I would love to see Staten come over for the Halo series again, but he's Bungie to the core. If they're really so concerned with writing, though, perhaps hiring a professional author to head the team would be in order. Nylund has extensive experience with the Industry and even Bear is becoming pretty well versed with the type of lore we expect from the current Halo games (I don't think Traviss would have the chops for it.) Hell, even picking from the fanbase might bode well. I've read many amazing fanfictions, mock movie scripts, and essays on various elements regarding the universe. Any number of us more inovlved would be a viable opportunity for them to strengthen the story and give the fans what they want at the same time (and please 343, don't pull a Casey Hudson. As much as you claim that you're happy with the ending to ME3, when the entire community hates it, you have to at least admit that something needs to be fixed.)

Message Index

Halo Wars & Halo 4: That "Halo" feeling *vids*	Revenant1988	2/28/13 9:26 p.m.
Re: Halo Wars & Halo 4: That "Halo" feeling *vids*	Dielectric	2/28/13 10:30 p.m.
Re: Halo Wars & Halo 4: That "Halo" feeling *vids*	Azo 'Galvat	2/28/13 10:31 p.m.
I think what Halo Wars did best	TDSpiral	3/1/13 1:06 a.m.
Re: Halo Wars & Halo 4: That "Halo" feeling *vids*	DarkReign2021	3/1/13 1:29 a.m.
A happy, positive post.	Quirel	3/1/13 4:08 a.m.