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Re: Cody's critique (long)
Posted By: Cody Miller <cody@haloreachisnotcanon.net>Date: 10/23/10 4:27 p.m.

In Response To: Cody's critique (long) (Kermit)


: Okay, I read Cody's article. I thought this before, and I'll say it now. I
: understand why Cody is so passionate the rules of narrative for films and
: novels. That's his profession. I know a lot about that myself. I have
: shelves full of writing books, and for every rule you read, you can find
: amazing examples where said rule has been flouted, and it boils down to
: the writer knowing their craft, knowing the purpose of the rules, and
: knowing when the needs of their work overcome the need to follow a rule.

As I've stated many times, I'm not trying to tie anybody down to a formula, but it seems to me that Bungie needs a little bit of help when it comes to storytelling lately, and following a tried and true structure is a great way to get back on track.

: I actually think it's a matter of interpretation whether Reach follows
: traditional rules of narrative. I agree with Aisha Tyler, who, in an
: interview, stated that Reach is "a lot more mature, and narratively a
: lot more sophisticated [than the previous four games]." (I'm not
: going to be so arrogant as to say that those who don't like it don't
: understand it, but I can't help but wonder if they'd grant me the same
: courtesy.) Ultimately, Reach is a game, and it's effectiveness as an
: experience isn't as dependent on following the same criteria we use to
: judge more passive art forms.

Reach is a very good game. Make no mistake, I will sing praises for it all day long on a campaign front. I am criticizing the story. I really feel that people who play games now and people who make games simply don't understand what games are. You can call that pompus if you like, but I've studied this for years and I see no other conclusion.

I'm going to try and lay this out in as clear of terms as I can, not only so I can lay out my position, but so that others who may wish to attack it can do it more easily.

What is the heart of a novel? The text. Can you tell a story with nothing but text? Yes. Thus, a novel is able to intrinsically tell a story.

What is the heart of music? The sounds. Can you tell a story with nothing but sound? Yes. Thus, music is able to intrinsically tell a story.

What is the heart of the stage? Blocked movement and physical performance. Can you tell a story with nothing but physical performance? Yes. Thus the stage is able to intrinsically tell a story.

What is the heart of film? A series of moving images. Can you tell a story with nothing but a series of moving images? Yes. Thus, film is abel to intrinsically tell a story.

So we see here that the novel does not need pictures to convey a narrative, and a film does not need sound to convey a narrative. These mediums need nothing else but their essence to convey a narrative.

What is the heart of a video game? A system of rules which form a simulation. Can you tell a predetermined story with nothing but a system of rules? You cannot!

So here you can see that at its core, the video game is unable to convey a predetermined narrative. All a system of rules can do is describe the possibility of interactions. They cannot make definite claims about the state of the world, as is required to form a narrative. Thus telling a narrative through only 'gameplay' is fundamentally impossible. (I firmly believe that the word 'gameplay' is terrible, since it muddles the discussion of things. When someone says that they like the gameplay, they mean they like the rules of the game. The confusion I think comes from people using game nowadays to encompass everything including non game elements such as cinematics and music, thus now requiring a new word to talk about what the word 'game' meant all along, i.e. the rules and interactions.)

The ability to program a computer with a series of rules that form a simulation has not fundamentally changed in the past 80 years. We can make more complex simulations because we have faster computers, but this is a difference in degree, not of fundamentals. Thus, things have remained virtually the same since video games were invented.

People often keep saying that we are 'not using the medium to its full potential' and that 'video games aren't mature'. But for all that talk, not one single game in the entire history of games has told a story through the rules ('gameplay' if you must) alone. 50 years, and the industry is still unable to give even ONE example of 'story through gameplay (and nothing else)'. Now, they will say that it's because the medium isn;t mature, but it's obvious to me why this is so! It's because a series of rules cannot be used to convey a predetermined narrative!

There's some people that have done some neat things, like replace the aliens in space invaders with 747 jets, and place the world trade center in the background, thus implying the futility of fighting terrorists and that violence will always exist. Braid's ending has a cool little twist which reveals itself through the mechanics. Metal Gear Solid 2 makes a pretty interesting philosophical point during the jejunum section where it switches to run and gun and hack and slash.

The thing is though, these things aren't NARRATIVES. They are clever little tricks that support a theme (I say support, because without all the non interactive stuff, you'd be wondering why MGS2 got all weird and switched genres.

Does this mean you shouldn't try to tell a story? No, it just means you have to come to terms with what you're making and supplement your game with things that CAN tell the story. But every time I hear a developer or critic say they want "story told through gameplay' I want to die, because they don't realize what they are asking is fundamentally impossible.

Play a version of Lone Wolf where it's boiled down to just the basics. Maybe everything is rendered with vector lines, and the elites are really dump trucks. But everything else is the same, every movement variable, every weapon effect, every hitbox.. Suddenly, you don't get the same story sense do you? Do you know why? Because the story is not contained within the rules that make up the game! It's contained in the artwork, it's contained in the cutscenes, it's contained in the music, it's contained in the scripted sequences, etc etc.

So the bottom line is, it doesn't mater if it's a game or not, because you are still telling your story through other means, and what works for them will work for them if they are used to present a story in your game.

Message Index



Replies:

HaloReachIsNotCanon.netHawaiian Pig 10/23/10 12:34 a.m.
     Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netCody Miller 10/23/10 12:38 a.m.
           Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netHawaiian Pig 10/23/10 12:55 a.m.
                 Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netnewguy2445 10/23/10 1:38 a.m.
                       Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netCody Miller 10/23/10 7:08 a.m.
                             Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netBlueNinja 10/23/10 7:52 a.m.
                 Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netBlueNinja 10/23/10 4:14 a.m.
                       Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netHawaiian Pig 10/23/10 4:18 a.m.
                             Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netBlueNinja 10/23/10 4:29 a.m.
                                   Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netHawaiian Pig 10/23/10 4:31 a.m.
                                         Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netBlueNinja 10/23/10 4:34 a.m.
                                         Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netLobster 10/23/10 5:30 a.m.
                 Cody's critique (long)Kermit 10/23/10 3:37 p.m.
                       BravoDHalo 10/23/10 3:51 p.m.
                             The Haloverse Will Survive.Leviathan 10/23/10 6:03 p.m.
                       Re: Cody's critique (long)Cody Miller 10/23/10 4:27 p.m.
                             Re: Cody's critique (long)DHalo 10/23/10 4:40 p.m.
                                   Re: Cody's critique (long)Cody Miller 10/23/10 4:57 p.m.
                                         Re: Cody's critique (long)DHalo 10/23/10 5:02 p.m.
                                         Oh and...DHalo 10/23/10 5:04 p.m.
                                               Re: Oh and...Cody Miller 10/23/10 5:10 p.m.
                                                     Re: Oh and...DHalo 10/23/10 5:21 p.m.
                                                           Re: Oh and...Leviathan 10/23/10 6:17 p.m.
                                                                 Thank ya :) *NM*DHalo 10/23/10 7:24 p.m.
                                                           Re: Oh and...Cody Miller 10/24/10 2:19 p.m.
                                                                 Re: Oh and...urK 10/24/10 4:36 p.m.
                                                                       Re: Oh and...Cody Miller 10/24/10 5:28 p.m.
                                                                             Re: Oh and...DHalo 10/24/10 6:02 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: Oh and...Cody Miller 10/24/10 6:20 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Oh and...DHalo 10/24/10 6:27 p.m.
                                                                                               Re: Oh and...Hawaiian Pig 10/24/10 7:49 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Oh and...urK 10/24/10 6:27 p.m.
                                                                                               Re: Oh and...Cody Miller 10/24/10 6:41 p.m.
                                                                             Re: Oh and...urK 10/24/10 6:06 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: Oh and...urK 10/24/10 6:14 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Oh and...Hawaiian Pig 10/24/10 6:34 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: Oh and...Cody Miller 10/24/10 6:40 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Oh and...Hawaiian Pig 10/24/10 6:49 p.m.
                                                                                               Re: Oh and...Cody Miller 10/24/10 6:53 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: Oh and...mnemesis 10/24/10 7:22 p.m.
                                                                                                           Re: Oh and...Hawaiian Pig 10/24/10 7:39 p.m.
                       To Kermit - Gladly *NM*Lobster 10/24/10 1:17 a.m.
     Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netCaleb 117 10/23/10 1:24 a.m.
     Ok, butPebbles 10/23/10 1:32 a.m.
           Re: Ok, butStephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 7:08 a.m.
     You guys are sickkanbo 10/23/10 1:37 a.m.
     Seriously?hyokin 10/23/10 1:38 a.m.
           Your posts get more and more stupid every day.Spartan Jag 10/23/10 2:51 a.m.
                 I lol'd *NM*kapowaz 10/23/10 3:24 a.m.
                 Have you ever tried not being an asshole?hyokin 10/23/10 8:59 a.m.
                       You didn't answer his question. *NM*gunluva 10/23/10 1:05 p.m.
                 Obviously I must be stupid to reply to his post.hyokin 10/23/10 2:13 p.m.
                       Re: Obviously I must be stupid to reply to his posgunluva 10/23/10 2:20 p.m.
                             Re: Obviously I must be stupid to reply to his posLeviathan 10/23/10 2:41 p.m.
                       Re: Obviously I must be stupid to reply to his posSpartan Jag 10/23/10 3:08 p.m.
                             That's enough. All of this has gone WAY too far. *NM*Cortana4ever 10/23/10 3:17 p.m.
                                   Agreed. I'm DONE. *NM*hyokin 10/23/10 3:20 p.m.
                                         Re: Agreed. I'm DONE.Spartan Jag 10/23/10 3:54 p.m.
                             ?padraig08 10/23/10 3:56 p.m.
                                   Re: ?gunluva 10/23/10 4:02 p.m.
                                         Re: ?padraig08 10/23/10 4:18 p.m.
                                   Re: ?Cody Miller 10/23/10 4:31 p.m.
                                         Re: ?padraig08 10/23/10 4:39 p.m.
                                               Re: ?DHalo 10/23/10 4:41 p.m.
                                                     Re: ?Vincent 10/23/10 4:45 p.m.
                                                           Re: ?padraig08 10/23/10 5:23 p.m.
           Re: Seriously?Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 6:52 a.m.
                 Re: Seriously?hyokin 10/23/10 9:02 a.m.
                       Re: Seriously?Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 9:10 a.m.
                             Re: Seriously?hyokin 10/23/10 9:50 a.m.
                                   Re: Seriously?Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 9:59 a.m.
           Re: Seriously?Gravemind 10/23/10 11:16 a.m.
                 Re: Seriously?hyokin 10/23/10 2:07 p.m.
     Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netCaleb 117 10/23/10 1:44 a.m.
     Love it.Gravemind 10/23/10 1:48 a.m.
     Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netWhoLikesChicken 10/23/10 2:11 a.m.
           Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netStephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 7:02 a.m.
                 Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netWhoLikesChicken 10/23/10 11:07 a.m.
                       Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netStephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 11:51 a.m.
     TheMultipleLevelsofHaloCannon.netLobster 10/23/10 2:21 a.m.
           Re: TheMultipleLevelsofHaloCannon.netSchooly D 10/23/10 2:42 a.m.
                 Re: TheMultipleLevelsofHaloCannon.netHawaiian Pig 10/23/10 4:37 a.m.
                       Re: TheMultipleLevelsofHaloCannon.netDHalo 10/23/10 9:47 a.m.
                             Re: TheMultipleLevelsofHaloCannon.netHawaiian Pig 10/23/10 2:44 p.m.
           Re: TheMultipleLevelsofHaloCannon.netCody Miller 10/23/10 6:13 a.m.
                 Re: TheMultipleLevelsofHaloCannon.netVincent 10/23/10 6:25 a.m.
                       Re: TheMultipleLevelsofHaloCannon.netCody Miller 10/23/10 6:27 a.m.
                 Re: TheMultipleLevelsofHaloCannon.netLobster 10/23/10 6:45 a.m.
                       Re: TheMultipleLevelsofHaloCannon.netCody Miller 10/23/10 6:51 a.m.
                             Re: TheMultipleLevelsofHaloCannon.netLobster 10/23/10 7:00 a.m.
                                   Re: TheMultipleLevelsofHaloCannon.netCody Miller 10/23/10 7:13 a.m.
                                         Re: TheMultipleLevelsofHaloCannon.netLobster 10/23/10 7:26 a.m.
     What a waste of time and bandwidthHikaru-119 10/23/10 2:34 a.m.
           That's what I like to see...kapowaz 10/23/10 3:32 a.m.
           Re: What a waste of time and bandwidthCody Miller 10/23/10 6:16 a.m.
     Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netCompton 10/23/10 2:41 a.m.
     No.Riceatron 10/23/10 3:35 a.m.
           To elaborate.Riceatron 10/23/10 3:41 a.m.
                 Alternately:kapowaz 10/23/10 3:49 a.m.
           It is getting old. However..........PsychoRaven 10/23/10 3:44 a.m.
                 Re: It is getting old. However..........Riceatron 10/23/10 3:49 a.m.
                       Re: It is getting old. However..........kapowaz 10/23/10 3:50 a.m.
                             Re: It is getting old. However..........Riceatron 10/23/10 3:53 a.m.
                                   Re: It is getting old. However..........kapowaz 10/23/10 3:58 a.m.
                                         Re: It is getting old. However..........Riceatron 10/23/10 4:07 a.m.
                                               Re: It is getting old. However..........kapowaz 10/23/10 4:14 a.m.
                                                     Re: It is getting old. However..........Riceatron 10/23/10 4:15 a.m.
                                               Re: It is getting old. However..........Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 7:20 a.m.
                                   Ok Riceatron. Let me lay this out for you.Hawaiian Pig 10/23/10 4:28 a.m.
                       Re: It is getting old. However..........Eiii 10/23/10 3:55 a.m.
                             Re: It is getting old. However..........Riceatron 10/23/10 3:56 a.m.
                                   Re: It is getting old. However..........Eiii 10/23/10 4:31 a.m.
                 Re: It is getting old. However..........Cody Miller 10/23/10 6:18 a.m.
           You're like the pro-bungie version of hp/cody *NM*Eiii 10/23/10 3:51 a.m.
           Re: No.mattroe 10/23/10 5:05 a.m.
                 Now *this* is ridiculouskapowaz 10/23/10 5:17 a.m.
                       Re: Now *this* is ridiculousmattroe 10/23/10 5:21 a.m.
                       Re: Now *this* is ridiculousBry 10/23/10 5:25 a.m.
                             Re: Now *this* is ridiculousCody Miller 10/23/10 6:25 a.m.
                                   Re: Now *this* is ridiculousBry 10/23/10 6:39 a.m.
                                         Re: Now *this* is ridiculousCody Miller 10/23/10 6:46 a.m.
                                               Re: Now *this* is ridiculousBry 10/23/10 6:57 a.m.
                                               Re: Now *this* is ridiculousMiguel Chavez 10/23/10 12:25 p.m.
                             Re: Now *this* is ridiculouskapowaz 10/23/10 9:14 a.m.
                                   Re: Now *this* is ridiculousDHalo 10/23/10 10:29 a.m.
                                         Re: Now *this* is ridiculousHawaiian Pig 10/23/10 2:50 p.m.
                                               Re: Now *this* is ridiculousDHalo 10/23/10 2:58 p.m.
                                                     Re: Now *this* is ridiculousHawaiian Pig 10/23/10 2:59 p.m.
                                                           Re: Now *this* is ridiculousVincent 10/23/10 3:01 p.m.
                                                                 Re: Now *this* is ridiculousDHalo 10/23/10 3:03 p.m.
                                                                 Re: Now *this* is ridiculousCody Miller 10/23/10 3:38 p.m.
                                   You've missed the point...mattroe 10/23/10 7:29 p.m.
           Really? Still?thebruce0 10/25/10 9:18 a.m.
                 think he leftGeneral Battuta 10/25/10 9:20 a.m.
                       Sorry, only 1/3 through this thread :Pthebruce0 10/25/10 9:21 a.m.
                             Dying Horse here, mind the flies *nm* *NM*justagrunt1 10/25/10 10:52 a.m.
     Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netimode 10/23/10 3:41 a.m.
           Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netaloyisus 10/23/10 6:09 a.m.
     Are you fucking kidding us?NobleSixActual 10/23/10 3:57 a.m.
           Re: Are you fucking kidding us?NobleSixActual 10/23/10 3:59 a.m.
                 Re: Are you fucking kidding us?Eiii 10/23/10 4:04 a.m.
                       Re: Are you fucking kidding us?NobleSixActual 10/23/10 4:07 a.m.
                             Re: Are you fucking kidding us?Eiii 10/23/10 4:21 a.m.
                             Re: Are you fucking kidding us?Hawaiian Pig 10/23/10 4:22 a.m.
           Re: Are you fucking kidding us?kapowaz 10/23/10 4:00 a.m.
                 That I pick dead characters for GTs? *NM*NobleSixActual 10/23/10 4:01 a.m.
           Re: Are you fucking kidding us?Cody Miller 10/23/10 6:31 a.m.
                 Re: Are you fucking kidding us?Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 7:26 a.m.
                 Re: Are you fucking kidding us?Azo 'Galvat 10/23/10 7:42 a.m.
                 Re: Are you fucking kidding us?Beckx 10/23/10 10:24 a.m.
                       Re: Are you fucking kidding us?The Loot 10/23/10 10:47 a.m.
                             Re: Are you fucking kidding us?Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 11:36 a.m.
                                   Re: Are you fucking kidding us?Hawaiian Pig 10/23/10 2:51 p.m.
     Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netVincent 10/23/10 5:50 a.m.
           Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netCody Miller 10/23/10 6:37 a.m.
                 Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netLobster 10/23/10 6:50 a.m.
                 Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netVincent 10/23/10 7:02 a.m.
                 Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netEl Presidente81 10/23/10 7:48 a.m.
                 Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netevildoctorwill 10/23/10 8:26 a.m.
                       Does tongue-in-cheek not mean anything to you guysHawaiian Pig 10/23/10 2:57 p.m.
                             Re: Does tongue-in-cheek not mean anything to you DHalo 10/23/10 3:02 p.m.
                             Re: Does tongue-in-cheek not mean anything to youCortana4ever 10/23/10 3:07 p.m.
                             Re: Does tongue-in-cheek not mean anything to youmnemesis 10/23/10 3:09 p.m.
                                   Re: Does tongue-in-cheek not mean anything to youEiii 10/23/10 3:27 p.m.
                                         Re: Does tongue-in-cheek not mean anything to youDHalo 10/23/10 3:36 p.m.
                                   Wow.Hawaiian Pig 10/23/10 3:28 p.m.
                                         woahMiguel Chavez 10/23/10 3:42 p.m.
                                               Re: woahDHalo 10/23/10 3:46 p.m.
                                         Re: Wow.DHalo 10/23/10 3:44 p.m.
                                         Re: Wow.mnemesis 10/23/10 3:58 p.m.
                                               Re: Wow.Cody Miller 10/23/10 4:44 p.m.
                                                     Re: Wow.Hawaiian Pig 10/23/10 5:52 p.m.
                                         Re: Wow.Cortana4ever 10/23/10 4:00 p.m.
                 Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netSchooly D 10/23/10 9:29 a.m.
                 No, I guess it doesn't...DHalo 10/23/10 10:00 a.m.
                 Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netKermit 10/23/10 3:35 p.m.
           Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netevildoctorwill 10/23/10 7:24 a.m.
                 Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netStephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 7:39 a.m.
                       Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netBry 10/23/10 8:00 a.m.
                             Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netStephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 8:46 a.m.
                                   Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netBry 10/23/10 10:16 a.m.
                                         Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netVincent 10/23/10 10:20 a.m.
                                               Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netBry 10/23/10 10:28 a.m.
                                               Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netStephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 11:24 a.m.
                                                     Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netBry 10/23/10 11:31 a.m.
                                                           Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netStephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 11:57 a.m.
                                                                 Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netBry 10/23/10 12:05 p.m.
                                                                       Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netStephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 12:39 p.m.
                                         Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netStephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 11:34 a.m.
                                               Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netBry 10/23/10 11:52 a.m.
                                                     Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netStephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 12:03 p.m.
                                                           Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netBry 10/23/10 12:12 p.m.
                                                                 Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netVincent 10/23/10 12:53 p.m.
                                                                       Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netQuirel 10/23/10 5:09 p.m.
                                                                             Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netVincent 10/23/10 5:15 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netBry 10/23/10 5:31 p.m.
                                                                 Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netStephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 12:55 p.m.
                                                                       Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netBry 10/23/10 1:11 p.m.
                                                                             Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netStephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 1:23 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netCody Miller 10/23/10 1:29 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netStephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 1:38 p.m.
                                                                                               Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netHawaiian Pig 10/23/10 3:06 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netDHalo 10/23/10 3:09 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netStephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 4:57 p.m.
                                                                                               Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netQuirel 10/23/10 6:24 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netStephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 6:55 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netBry 10/23/10 1:36 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netStephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 1:50 p.m.
                                   Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netArchilen 10/24/10 10:54 a.m.
                             Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netArchilen 10/24/10 10:50 a.m.
                                   Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netBry 10/24/10 11:15 a.m.
                                   Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netStephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/24/10 8:24 p.m.
                                         Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netArchilen 10/25/10 1:24 a.m.
                                               Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netStephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/25/10 6:29 a.m.
                                               Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netBry 10/25/10 6:44 a.m.
                                                     Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netStephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/25/10 7:20 a.m.
                                                           Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netBry 10/25/10 10:54 a.m.
                             Just a thought...thebruce0 10/25/10 9:49 a.m.
                                   Re: Just a thought...Bry 10/25/10 11:06 a.m.
                                   Re: Just a thought...Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/25/10 11:06 a.m.
                                         Re: Just a thought...Beckx 10/25/10 11:12 a.m.
                                               Re: Just a thought...thebruce0 10/25/10 1:09 p.m.
                                                     Re: Just a thought...Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/25/10 1:29 p.m.
                       Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netPebbles 10/23/10 8:02 a.m.
                             ^_This *NM*evildoctorwill 10/23/10 8:20 a.m.
                             Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netStephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 8:52 a.m.
                                   Aren't you a little short for a Stormtrooper?urK 10/23/10 12:20 p.m.
                                         Re: Aren't you a little short for a Stormtrooper?aloyisus 10/23/10 12:35 p.m.
                                               Re: Aren't you a little short for a Stormtrooper?urK 10/23/10 12:40 p.m.
                                                     Re: Aren't you a little short for a Stormtrooper?aloyisus 10/23/10 12:42 p.m.
                                               Re: Aren't you a little short for a Stormtrooper?Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 1:00 p.m.
                                         Re: Aren't you a little short for a Stormtrooper?Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 1:05 p.m.
                                               Re: Aren't you a little short for a Stormtrooper?Bry 10/23/10 1:17 p.m.
                                   Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netAnton P. Nym (aka Steve) 10/23/10 12:35 p.m.
                                         Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netCody Miller 10/23/10 12:37 p.m.
                                         Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netStephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 1:09 p.m.
                                               Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netAnton P. Nym (aka Steve) 10/23/10 1:45 p.m.
                                                     Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netStephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 1:59 p.m.
     Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netArteenEsben 10/23/10 7:13 a.m.
           Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netStephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 7:45 a.m.
                 Has Bungie ever said the books are canon? *NM*evildoctorwill 10/23/10 7:50 a.m.
                       They have...Bry 10/23/10 8:01 a.m.
                             Re: They have...evildoctorwill 10/23/10 8:04 a.m.
                                   Re: They have...Bry 10/23/10 8:10 a.m.
                                         Re: They have...evildoctorwill 10/23/10 8:18 a.m.
                                               Re: They have...Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 8:32 a.m.
                                                     Hopefully Frankie can fix allevildoctorwill 10/23/10 8:36 a.m.
                                                           Re: Hopefully Frankie can fix allStephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 8:55 a.m.
                                                           I think it might be down to a change of hatsonebitrocket 10/23/10 4:04 p.m.
                                                     This is why.Riceatron 10/23/10 9:03 a.m.
                                                           Re: This is why.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 9:12 a.m.
                                                                 Re: This is why.Riceatron 10/23/10 9:15 a.m.
                                                                       Re: This is why.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 9:42 a.m.
                                                                             Re: This is why.Riceatron 10/23/10 9:56 a.m.
                                                                                   Re: This is why.Vincent 10/23/10 10:02 a.m.
                                                                                   Re: This is why.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 10:06 a.m.
                                                                                         Re: This is why.Vincent 10/23/10 10:14 a.m.
                                                                                               Re: This is why.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 11:17 a.m.
                                                                                   Re: This is why.DHalo 10/23/10 10:07 a.m.
                                                                                         Re: This is why.Cortana4ever 10/23/10 10:10 a.m.
                                                                                               Re: This is why.Riceatron 10/23/10 10:13 a.m.
                                                                                                     Re: This is why.Cortana4ever 10/23/10 10:15 a.m.
                                                                                                           Re: This is why.Riceatron 10/23/10 10:18 a.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: This is why.DHalo 10/23/10 10:21 a.m.
                                                                                         Re: This is why.Riceatron 10/23/10 10:11 a.m.
                                                                                               Re: This is why.DHalo 10/23/10 10:18 a.m.
                                                                                                     Re: This is why.Riceatron 10/23/10 10:32 a.m.
                                                                                                           Re: This is why.Vincent 10/23/10 10:37 a.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: This is why.Bry 10/23/10 10:42 a.m.
                                                                                                                       Re: This is why.Vincent 10/23/10 10:45 a.m.
                                                                                                                             Re: This is why.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 11:41 a.m.
                                                                                                                                   Re: This is why.Riceatron 10/23/10 12:46 p.m.
                                                                                                                                         Re: This is why.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 1:12 p.m.
                                                                                                                                               Re: This is why.Vincent 10/23/10 1:14 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                     Re: This is why.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 1:30 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: This is why.Cody Miller 10/23/10 1:33 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: This is why.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 1:41 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: This is why.Cody Miller 10/23/10 1:44 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: This is why.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 1:51 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: This is why.Cody Miller 10/23/10 1:56 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: This is why.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 2:01 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: This is why.Quirel 10/23/10 6:48 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: This is why.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 6:58 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: This is why.Quirel 10/23/10 8:24 p.m.
                                                                                                           Re: This is why.DHalo 10/23/10 10:39 a.m.
                                                                                                           Re: This is why.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 11:13 a.m.
                                                           Re: This is why.Gravemind 10/23/10 11:45 a.m.
                                                                 Re: This is why.Cody Miller 10/23/10 11:47 a.m.
                                                                       Re: This is why.Leviathan 10/23/10 12:08 p.m.
                                                     Re: They have...Bry 10/23/10 10:25 a.m.
                 Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netArteenEsben 10/23/10 9:35 a.m.
                       Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netStephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 9:57 a.m.
                             Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netBry 10/23/10 3:59 p.m.
                                   Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netQuirel 10/23/10 7:04 p.m.
                                         Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netBry 10/23/10 7:10 p.m.
                                               Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netQuirel 10/23/10 8:18 p.m.
                 History is immutable! LOL! *NM*Kermit 10/23/10 3:24 p.m.
                       Re: History is immutable! LOL!Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 5:05 p.m.
                             Re: History is immutable! LOL!Bry 10/23/10 5:27 p.m.
                                   Re: History is immutable! LOL!Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 5:56 p.m.
                                         Re: History is immutable! LOL!Bry 10/23/10 6:16 p.m.
                                               Re: History is immutable! LOL!Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 6:54 p.m.
                                                     Re: History is immutable! LOL!Bry 10/23/10 7:04 p.m.
                                                           Re: History is immutable! LOL!Quirel 10/23/10 7:11 p.m.
                                                                 Re: History is immutable! LOL!Bry 10/23/10 7:18 p.m.
                                                           Re: History is immutable! LOL!Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 7:39 p.m.
                                                     Wait... Bootcamp #2 came out?Leviathan 10/23/10 9:10 p.m.
                                                           Re: Wait... Bootcamp #2 came out?Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 10:33 p.m.
                                                                 Re: Wait... Bootcamp #2 came out?Leviathan 10/24/10 1:51 a.m.
                                   This ^Kermit 10/24/10 12:12 p.m.
                             Re: History is immutable! LOL!Beckx 10/23/10 5:30 p.m.
     I like midichlorians *NM*Mirel 10/23/10 7:23 a.m.
     This is entertaining.Cortana4ever 10/23/10 8:05 a.m.
     Not sure why anyone cares at this point...FoolsRun 10/23/10 8:35 a.m.
           Re: Not sure why anyone cares at this point...Lobster 10/23/10 8:45 a.m.
           Re: Not sure why anyone cares at this point...Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 9:07 a.m.
                 Re: Allow me to clarify...FoolsRun 10/23/10 6:48 p.m.
                       Re: Allow me to clarify...Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 7:04 p.m.
                             I understand..FoolsRun 10/23/10 7:57 p.m.
                                   By golly you doCody Miller 10/23/10 9:22 p.m.
           Re: Not sure why anyone cares at this point...Cody Miller 10/23/10 10:12 a.m.
           Re: Not sure why anyone cares at this point...Azo 'Galvat 10/23/10 10:44 a.m.
           Halo is not the Dollars Trilogy. *NM*uberfoop 10/23/10 6:23 p.m.
     HP is ready for his thorazine, nurse. *NM*Anton P. Nym (aka Steve) 10/23/10 8:45 a.m.
     Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netDrDoctor 10/23/10 9:25 a.m.
           Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netVincent 10/23/10 10:09 a.m.
                 Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netCortana4ever 10/23/10 10:13 a.m.
           Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netHawaiian Pig 10/23/10 3:42 p.m.
     Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netBeckx 10/23/10 10:34 a.m.
     Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netJak Redlevske 10/23/10 10:45 a.m.
     Skipping this. Life's too short. *NM*Kermit 10/23/10 11:06 a.m.
           Re: Skipping this. Life's too short.General Vagueness 10/23/10 11:24 a.m.
     I appreciate your opinion.kanbo 10/23/10 11:22 a.m.
           Re: I appreciate your opinion.Cortana4ever 10/23/10 11:24 a.m.
           "everyone else"? *NM*Vincent 10/23/10 11:28 a.m.
     Here's my opinion....Cortana4ever 10/23/10 11:31 a.m.
     Thank... you.... GOD!chris101b 10/23/10 11:49 a.m.
           Re: Thank... you.... GOD!Cody Miller 10/23/10 12:32 p.m.
                 D: Whatever happened to zen and peace? *NM*Cortana4ever 10/23/10 12:37 p.m.
                       Re: D: Whatever happened to zen and peace?Quirel 10/23/10 9:21 p.m.
                       ...the milkman? the paperboy? evening tv? *NM*thebruce0 10/25/10 10:43 a.m.
     New record!Cody Miller 10/23/10 1:20 p.m.
           Um... nochris101b 10/23/10 1:30 p.m.
           Hey CodyMiguel Chavez 10/23/10 2:28 p.m.
                 Re: Hey CodyCody Miller 10/23/10 2:37 p.m.
                       Re: Hey CodyMiguel Chavez 10/23/10 2:55 p.m.
     Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netCaleb 117 10/23/10 3:13 p.m.
           Well now that the dust has settled.Hawaiian Pig 10/23/10 3:56 p.m.
                 Re: Well now that the dust has settled.DHalo 10/23/10 4:13 p.m.
                 Re: Well now that the dust has settled.Cody Miller 10/23/10 5:03 p.m.
     Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netQuirel 10/23/10 4:55 p.m.
           Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netDHalo 10/23/10 4:58 p.m.
           Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netHawaiian Pig 10/23/10 5:33 p.m.
     My take on ReachMeyeselph 10/23/10 4:56 p.m.
     first time poster's responseDervish 10/23/10 6:01 p.m.
           great exampleMiguel Chavez 10/23/10 6:09 p.m.
                 Re: great exampleHawaiian Pig 10/23/10 6:24 p.m.
                       Re: great exampleMiguel Chavez 10/23/10 6:48 p.m.
                             Re: great exampleCody Miller 10/23/10 7:11 p.m.
                                   I have evidenceAvateur 10/23/10 7:21 p.m.
                                         Re: I have evidenceHawaiian Pig 10/23/10 7:28 p.m.
                                               Re: I have evidenceAvateur 10/23/10 7:40 p.m.
                                                     Re: I have evidenceCody Miller 10/23/10 7:47 p.m.
                                                           Re: I have evidenceAvateur 10/23/10 8:03 p.m.
                                                                 AddendumAvateur 10/23/10 8:22 p.m.
                                                                       This whole subthread is a jokeEiii 10/23/10 8:42 p.m.
                                                                             DudeDHalo 10/23/10 8:46 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: DudeQuirel 10/23/10 9:29 p.m.
                                                                             Re: This whole subthread is a jokeAvateur 10/23/10 9:00 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: This whole subthread is a jokeCody Miller 10/23/10 9:18 p.m.
                                                           Re: I have evidenceMiguel Chavez 10/23/10 8:26 p.m.
                                                                 i heart migDHalo 10/23/10 8:28 p.m.
                                                                 oopsMiguel Chavez 10/23/10 8:29 p.m.
                                                                 Re: I have evidenceCody Miller 10/23/10 9:06 p.m.
                                                                       Re: I have evidenceMiguel Chavez 10/23/10 10:27 p.m.
                                               "It takes ten seconds to make a first impression7he grunt w/a plasma pistol 10/23/10 7:47 p.m.
                                                     Re: "It takes ten seconds to make a first impressiSl'askia 10/23/10 9:56 p.m.
                                               Re: I have evidenceuberfoop 10/23/10 7:52 p.m.
                                                     Re: I have evidenceHawaiian Pig 10/23/10 8:41 p.m.
                                                           Re: I have evidenceEiii 10/23/10 9:04 p.m.
                                                                 Re: I have evidenceDHalo 10/23/10 9:08 p.m.
                                                           Re: I have evidenceQuirel 10/23/10 9:34 p.m.
                                                                 Snotcannon.com *NM*Urk 10/23/10 9:41 p.m.
                                                                       Howdy, Urk.gunluva 10/23/10 9:56 p.m.
                                                                             Re: Howdy, Urk.Sl'askia 10/23/10 9:59 p.m.
                                                                       Clever devil. *NM*Jak Redlevske 10/23/10 11:21 p.m.
                 Re: great exampleBry 10/23/10 6:34 p.m.
           Re: first time poster's responseLeviathan 10/23/10 6:36 p.m.
           Re: first time poster's responseStephen L. (SoundEffect) 10/23/10 6:43 p.m.
           The best post here, and with this I'm through. *NM*Riceatron 10/24/10 2:45 p.m.
     Haha, oh wowradda 10/23/10 8:52 p.m.
           Re: Haha, oh wowVincent 10/23/10 9:00 p.m.
                 Re: Haha, oh wowradda 10/23/10 10:02 p.m.
                 Re: Haha, oh wowDerekT07 10/23/10 11:22 p.m.
                       Re: Haha, oh wowCody Miller 10/23/10 11:32 p.m.
                             Re: Haha, oh wowDerekT07 10/24/10 12:05 a.m.
     Re: HaloReachIsNotCanon.netAsian Inferno 10/24/10 1:26 a.m.
     You honestly have more faith in 343i over Bungie? *NM*Jayshum 10/24/10 9:08 a.m.
     This is why...7he_7ruth 10/24/10 10:52 a.m.
           Zathras can never have anything nice. *NM*Beckx 10/24/10 12:56 p.m.
           I think a bit of a BM-recap is in orderEiii 10/24/10 5:05 p.m.
                 Re: I think a bit of a BM-recap is in order7he_7ruth 10/24/10 5:59 p.m.
                 Re: I think a bit of a BM-recap is in orderAvateur 10/24/10 10:11 p.m.
                       Re: I think a bit of a BM-recap is in orderEiii 10/24/10 11:29 p.m.
                             Re: I think a bit of a BM-recap is in orderDHalo 10/24/10 11:37 p.m.
                                   Re: I think a bit of a BM-recap is in orderHawaiian Pig 10/25/10 12:17 a.m.
                             Re: I think a bit of a BM-recap is in orderAvateur 10/24/10 11:45 p.m.
                                   Re: I think a bit of a BM-recap is in orderHawaiian Pig 10/25/10 12:26 a.m.
     Holycrap what did I miss this weekend? o_O *NM*thebruce0 10/25/10 8:58 a.m.
           A -1d6 SAN hazard. Roll, please. *NM*Anton P. Nym (aka Steve) 10/25/10 9:19 a.m.
           *IMG*bluerunner 10/25/10 10:46 a.m.
                 Windmill FTW! *NM*Beckx 10/25/10 10:50 a.m.



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