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Re: Dream Terminal Thoughts
Posted By: Tycho7enDate: 1/15/02 4:04 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Dream Terminal Thoughts (SiliconDream =PN=)

: Few questions here: If these are the W'rkncacnter's dreams, why are they
: so...orderly? We've seen the dreams of a W'rkncacnter before, in PID. They
: consisted of impossible artifacts and murderous monsters, most of which
: wandered aimlessly while violating at least six different natural laws
: each. Yet, the level arcs in Infinity are perfectly self-consistent and
: hyper-realistic. It seems strange that the dreams of such a chaos-being
: would consist of exact simulations of the L'howon system following an
: alteration to its past--that sounds more like the daydream of an AI or a
: Jjaro. Furthermore, why is the W'rkncacnter constantly dreaming about its
: upcoming escape, in the 3rd person? Some sort of psychic defense the Jjaro
: constructed--it won't actually wake up as long as it keeps dreaming about
: waking up?

Good question.

What wakes the monster up? I thought that the W'r monster was ALREADY awake, free to determine the fate and end of the universe. Yet this does seem strange... you know, like how a villian in a B movie stalls JUST long enough for the hero to gain the upper hand. But this doesn't make much sense, especialy considering that the Marine and the W'r monster are VERY different creatures. What do they have in common? Well, the Marine was a daydreamer... that's about it.

Why can't the W'r monster wake up? Well, I thought that it was just a dreaming monster to begin with. Although the fact that it can "awaken" to wreck havoc and consume... doesn't necessarily fit. Why dream about waking up? And why dream about a "what-if" scenario in Lh'owon? And why are the dreams so orderly? My guess was that the W'r monster was toying with us, playing with its "god-like" nature. Perhaps then, this creature isn't the PiD monster, but something related. Something that creates and destroys... then that's contradicting with the W'r monster's will to consume, its chaotic nature. Sounds more like the Marine. But I doubt it's the Marine dreaming... I think you're right in that if something's dreaming, it's likely to be a Jjaro. Hey, that works with the terminals in the MI Demo version of Ne Cede Malis! "We can see your fate countless times. DEATH." Of course, this could be considered non-canon, since it wasn't in the final game... but that never stopped speculation of the "Fire and Brimstone SEVEN riders of the Apocalypse" terminal. ;)

Which, of course, makes my theory bunk and the parallel universes/Jjaro boxers theory prevail once again. Curses! [insert Snidely Whiplash remark here]

The core of my theory was simply that rather than visiting other universes, we were always in the same universe but it and other events were constantly being altered. That way, it's "easier" (sort of) for Marathon Infinity to end in the Marathon 2 universe. For the same conclusion, all you need to do is make "Aye Mak Sicur" take place in the traditional Marathon universe...

On another note, I see the universes from M2 though Ne Cede Malis as being connected, albeit warped by outside forces. Right now, I don't see the "dreams" as a complex defense system... but a creator's memoirs. Shared dreams, the dreams of the mind of the Marine (dream level terminals), the Jjaro (dream level S'pht, S'pht'Kr and Lh'owon-esque terrain) and the W'r monster (the ending to all simulated realities, the grey dream level Enforcers exterminating the Ticks and all life). Actually, that could work as a defense system... but I like to think of it as a conflict of forces. The Marine is the pawn, soon to become a player himself. The W'r monster are the destroyers, the armaggeddon creature. The Jjaro are the creators, the beginning.

: We're told that the Cyborg ends up becoming a "god." Doesn't that
: imply that during Infinity he gains power over reality itself, and not
: just over a sleeping W'rkncacnter? Mental domination of W'rkncacnter is a
: cool power, but not really in the divine class...unless you're
: unscrupulous enough to tote a W'rkncacnter around and use it to edit
: reality, I guess.

I remember the Jjaro "releasing "whatever hold [they] had on [the Marine's] soul." That could mean that he's been dismissed from being the neverending hero. While I have heard GregK talk about granting the player "godhood", I didn't have a very clear picture of what he was talking about. Perhaps the Jjaro could control the Marine's implants, as some have speculated, and they decided to release their control after Aye Mak Sicur, granting the Marine total freedom of his Jjaro powers.

: In a connected question, what does it mean to win? Have you put the
: W'rkncacnter back to sleep? Or, I guess, it was sleeping all along...so
: have you just given it quieter dreams?

To win? Capture the W'r monster for containment... put the W'r monster back to sleep? Well, I thought that he was a dreamer even when he was "awake"... his scope of powers merely broadened to completely control the universe. I felt that his "awakening" created a blank slate for him to work upon yet again, but the marine is never in any danger from the W'r monster. Perhaps the Marine was the Jjaro's pawn, and the W'r creature an enemy on a completely different level. Or is it? How different is the W'r creature to us? It certainly seems very different, but the Marine was created to destroy... that's about it as far as what they have in common.

: I have no doubt that you can counter all my arguments on why the evidence
: doesn't favor multiple timelines over consecutive dreams. But what about
: the other direction? What evidence is there that these level arcs aren't
: different timelines, but are instead different dreams?

: You've been "breaking character" at least since Foe Hammer, though.
: That's the first time you turn against your master. Strange Aeons, in
: fact, allows less freedom of choice than almost any other level. You're
: given a chip; you have to open each chamber in order and then put the chip
: in the socket. Straightforward and totally linear.

My choice of words was wrong, I admit. Perhaps what I meant to say was that we broke one of our (somewhat) traditional roles thrown upon us in the beginning of each of these these worlds. Instead of playing the servant, we're starting to make our own choices.

: Regardless, Tycho says pretty clearly that you yourself have been destroying
: and creating worlds.

True, true. Creating, I didn't understand. Destroying... well, look at what we (indirectly) did to Lh'owon. Tau Ceti was almost inevitable... Durandal's intervention would have just let stalled the colony's destruction. Perhaps "worlds" is another metaphor, and it could be in reference the the "worlds" (which I considered to be dream worlds) that the Marine romps around on.

So what have we created? The destruction of the universe? The beginning of the end? Argh, my headache's coming back.

: But those "thousands" are "the same self, the only self."
: They're not thousands of different people, they're thousands of variants
: of the same person, suffering a "thousand self-willed fates."

Ah, okay... I see it now.

: --SiliconDream

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Pre-2004 Posts

Replies:

Dream Terminal ThoughtsSiliconDream =PN= 1/13/02 1:53 a.m.
     Good grief!Hamish Sinclair 1/13/02 5:44 a.m.
           Holy Doctoral Thesis Batman! *NT* *NM*Ernie 1/15/02 3:27 p.m.
     Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsMark Levin 1/13/02 6:46 a.m.
           Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsTycho7en 1/13/02 8:20 a.m.
                 Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsCpt. Sqweky 1/14/02 8:32 p.m.
           Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsSiliconDream =PN= 1/13/02 3:47 p.m.
                 Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsAndrew Nagy 1/14/02 7:00 a.m.
                       Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsSiliconDream =PN= 1/14/02 1:54 p.m.
                       Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsSiliconDream =PN= 1/14/02 2:59 p.m.
                             Duplicate post, sorry *NM*SiliconDream =PN= 1/14/02 3:04 p.m.
                             Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsAndrew Nagy 1/18/02 7:24 a.m.
                                   Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsTru7h 1/18/02 9:11 a.m.
                                   Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsSiliconDream =PN= 1/18/02 1:10 p.m.
           Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsAndrew Nagy 1/14/02 7:00 a.m.
     Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsTycho7en 1/13/02 7:43 a.m.
           Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsSiliconDream =PN= 1/13/02 1:22 p.m.
                 Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsTycho7en 1/13/02 3:06 p.m.
                       Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsSiliconDream =PN= 1/13/02 11:31 p.m.
                             Wow, it all makes sense now!Jonah 1/15/02 12:37 a.m.
                             Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsTycho7en 1/15/02 4:04 p.m.
     Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsRincewind MoG 1/13/02 1:23 p.m.
     Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsTru7h 1/13/02 1:49 p.m.
           Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsSiliconDream =PN= 1/13/02 3:59 p.m.
                 Oh, and...SiliconDream =PN= 1/13/02 4:01 p.m.
                       Re: Oh, and...Smasher 1/13/02 7:29 p.m.
                             Re: Oh, and...SiliconDream =PN= 1/13/02 10:55 p.m.



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