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Re: Dream Terminal Thoughts
Posted By: SiliconDream =PN=Date: 1/13/02 11:31 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Dream Terminal Thoughts (Tycho7en)

: Perhaps. I think that these "time jumps" are really just interludes
: between the W'r monster's dreams. You're trapped in his dreams, and you're
: the only person who can have any affect on their outcome.
: It's a dream, many dreams, numerous deadly dreams, but once it's over it's as
: if they never happened. Do the dreams have a direct affect on what happens
: in the next? Not until you merge Durandal and Thoth, and the resulting
: entity instructs you to capture the W'r monster once and for all.
: I still see the Marine as a servant. The marine serves it's master, the
: greater entity. Of course, he does have some bias... up until Marathon
: Infinity, he was fighting for humanity. In Infinity, he's fighting for
: order in a chaotic universe. Do actions have consequences in a chaotic
: universe? To some extent, they do in MI. But oddly enough, your actions
: seem to have a constant affect the W'r monster's dreams... is this what
: Durandal meant when he said "You are Destiny"?
: Not quite. You're Destiny... that's what stops the chaos in the end. You're
: the only person who can change the outcome. That's the right path...
: disobeying your role (shades of Arthur Frain?) in the dream to change the
: outcome completely.
: Might I add, the W'r monster's not rewriting the book of history, he's
: rewriting the rules of the universe. It's his dreaming grounds, now. As I
: said, what happens when you wake up? Do your dreams radically change your
: world when you wake up? Of course not, you wake up as if nothing happened.
: And that's what the "dream" levels are for... the W'r monster
: goes through a stage of subconscious, only to start dreaming again. The
: only thing that's constant through the W'r monsters dreams is the player's
: actions... Durandal can't change what happens until you merge him with
: Thoth. Everything's just a theater, a play, an opera. Everyone's the W'r
: monster's marionette, but you're somehow free from his control.
: No, it's not altering history. It's doing something different, something that
: you haven't done before. You haven't tried changing your role in his
: dreams, have you? You've always been the servant, your master is a
: variable. Up until Strange Aeons, when you suddenly have a degree of free
: will...

Few questions here:

If these are the W'rkncacnter's dreams, why are they so...orderly? We've seen the dreams of a W'rkncacnter before, in PID. They consisted of impossible artifacts and murderous monsters, most of which wandered aimlessly while violating at least six different natural laws each. Yet, the level arcs in Infinity are perfectly self-consistent and hyper-realistic. It seems strange that the dreams of such a chaos-being would consist of exact simulations of the L'howon system following an alteration to its past--that sounds more like the daydream of an AI or a Jjaro. Furthermore, why is the W'rkncacnter constantly dreaming about its upcoming escape, in the 3rd person? Some sort of psychic defense the Jjaro constructed--it won't actually wake up as long as it keeps dreaming about waking up?

We're told that the Cyborg ends up becoming a "god." Doesn't that imply that during Infinity he gains power over reality itself, and not just over a sleeping W'rkncacnter? Mental domination of W'rkncacnter is a cool power, but not really in the divine class...unless you're unscrupulous enough to tote a W'rkncacnter around and use it to edit reality, I guess.

In a connected question, what does it mean to win? Have you put the W'rkncacnter back to sleep? Or, I guess, it was sleeping all along...so have you just given it quieter dreams?

I have no doubt that you can counter all my arguments on why the evidence doesn't favor multiple timelines over consecutive dreams. But what about the other direction? What evidence is there that these level arcs aren't different timelines, but are instead different dreams?

: That's based on how you interpret the terminals. Even so, part of that
: interpretation fits with my theory. You've been fighting "doubt"
: itself, right? You're fighting the W'r monster, but you've never thought
: of that until Strange Aeons. Until then, you've been a servant. How do you
: fight "doubt"? You break character in "doubt"'s
: dreams.

You've been "breaking character" at least since Foe Hammer, though. That's the first time you turn against your master. Strange Aeons, in fact, allows less freedom of choice than almost any other level. You're given a chip; you have to open each chamber in order and then put the chip in the socket. Straightforward and totally linear.

Regardless, Tycho says pretty clearly that you yourself have been destroying and creating worlds.

: "Thousands are sailing" are not timelines, it's everyone
: affected by the W'r monster's many dreams, unable to change the path.
: Everyone else is skimming the surface, letting the current flow. The
: marine does the same, but he later realizes that if he follows the
: current, nothing's going to change. "A line of infinite ends" is
: referring to the many ends to the W'r monsters dreams... yet the path
: continues through the W'r monster's other dreams and you're stuck with a
: constant, nightmarish ending for each dream unless you can make it stop.

But those "thousands" are "the same self, the only self." They're not thousands of different people, they're thousands of variants of the same person, suffering a "thousand self-willed fates."

--SiliconDream

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Pre-2004 Posts

Replies:

Dream Terminal ThoughtsSiliconDream =PN= 1/13/02 1:53 a.m.
     Good grief!Hamish Sinclair 1/13/02 5:44 a.m.
           Holy Doctoral Thesis Batman! *NT* *NM*Ernie 1/15/02 3:27 p.m.
     Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsMark Levin 1/13/02 6:46 a.m.
           Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsTycho7en 1/13/02 8:20 a.m.
                 Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsCpt. Sqweky 1/14/02 8:32 p.m.
           Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsSiliconDream =PN= 1/13/02 3:47 p.m.
                 Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsAndrew Nagy 1/14/02 7:00 a.m.
                       Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsSiliconDream =PN= 1/14/02 1:54 p.m.
                       Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsSiliconDream =PN= 1/14/02 2:59 p.m.
                             Duplicate post, sorry *NM*SiliconDream =PN= 1/14/02 3:04 p.m.
                             Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsAndrew Nagy 1/18/02 7:24 a.m.
                                   Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsTru7h 1/18/02 9:11 a.m.
                                   Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsSiliconDream =PN= 1/18/02 1:10 p.m.
           Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsAndrew Nagy 1/14/02 7:00 a.m.
     Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsTycho7en 1/13/02 7:43 a.m.
           Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsSiliconDream =PN= 1/13/02 1:22 p.m.
                 Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsTycho7en 1/13/02 3:06 p.m.
                       Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsSiliconDream =PN= 1/13/02 11:31 p.m.
                             Wow, it all makes sense now!Jonah 1/15/02 12:37 a.m.
                             Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsTycho7en 1/15/02 4:04 p.m.
     Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsRincewind MoG 1/13/02 1:23 p.m.
     Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsTru7h 1/13/02 1:49 p.m.
           Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsSiliconDream =PN= 1/13/02 3:59 p.m.
                 Oh, and...SiliconDream =PN= 1/13/02 4:01 p.m.
                       Re: Oh, and...Smasher 1/13/02 7:29 p.m.
                             Re: Oh, and...SiliconDream =PN= 1/13/02 10:55 p.m.



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