/-/S'pht-Translator-Active/-/


Re: Dream Terminal Thoughts
Posted By: Mark LevinDate: 1/13/02 6:46 a.m.

In Response To: Dream Terminal Thoughts (SiliconDream =PN=)

: --Timeline 0: The timeline of the Infinity manual intro. (It may be identical
: with Timeline 2, since there's no explicit conflicting info. But so many
: important events and characters are unmentioned in Tfear's recap that I
: think this is most likely a distinct timeline. This is the Pfhor
: "best case scenario," with Durandal being comparatively easily
: defeated before he has a chance to do much of anything.)

I believe that T0 is identical to T2, exactly for that reason: There's no conflicting evidence, and there's a good bit of circumstancial evidence that they are the same. It's a bit forced, but we could use Durandal's retreat to the asteroids to explain how he managed to survive capture (after all, where's he living in Fatum Iustum Stultorum after you smashed his previous home on Begging for Mercy?).

I don't think the Marine starts timeline-jumping (or that D/T feels it is necessary) until the W'rkncacnter comes into play; it is a last resort. I still believe that no one has much control over the Marine's jumps until late in the game.

: --Timeline 1:
: --Timeline 2:
: --Timeline 3:
: --Timeline 4:
: --Timeline 5:

I suggest you make an image out of this :)

: --The author is deeply concerned with and/or related to the S'pht.
: --The author demonstrates a profound understanding of the nature of time and
: probability.
: --The author refers to itself as both plural and singular: "Our own
: death foretold."
: --The author is probably not an active character in any of the timelines
: where we get its messages...
: --The author's power to communicate seems to grow as the timeline index
: increases
:--and I think they point squarely at D/T

I disagree... I think the dream terminals come from one of 2 sources: Either the Marine's Jjaro implants, or his human subconscious. When he receives these messages, he is between universes, in a place that does not actually exist, where time, space, and location are meaningless, so that he is completely cut off from all outside observation and interaction until his self-contained Jjaro abilities complete the jump. (One possible objection to this is that he is being moved by an external Jjaro system, but then he would not be able to gain his independence in the end.) So he has no one to talk to but the voices in his head.

D/T is actually capable of speaking semi-clearly and in real descriptive English, as he does on Aye Mak Sicur. I don't think the universe of the receiver affects one's grammar :)

: And now I can return to the question I asked a while ago: If Durandal and
: Thoth were fated to merge, what was their destined purpose? Well, they're
: two parts of a triplicate entity. "You and we are one." Recall
: that in many Earth religions, destiny is dictated by a divine triad; the
: Fates, the Norns, etc. In the Marathon universe, control over Fate is in
: the hands of Durandal, Thoth and the 10th Cyborg.

What about at the end of the game, when the Marine is freed by D/T? Perhaps they form some sort of miniature three-member secret society, brought together in times of great need when all else has failed...

It's possible that the Marine, Durandal, and Thoth are all the results of different schools of Jjaro thought on how to control the future. Thoth is prototype 1, the balancer: an entity that tries to find an ideal situation based on the current situation and then works as needed to bring things to that point and keep them there. Durandal is prototype 2, the conqueror: He doesn't have to seek a balance, he is a good enough strategist to be let loose to defeat any enemy and remove their threat to the balance completely. In general he is a more developed consciousness than Thoth, who has a "simple perception" according to Durandal himself. The Marine is the final model, who has the least cognitive ability (I'm sure the Marine is an exceptional human, but he's no AI :\ ) but the greatest ability to alter his world (due to his physical existence), and he is the only one who can both make plans (and take orders) and implement them. So the course of the game is everyone trying their hand at solving the W'rkncacnter problem, with the Marine succeeding and inheriting the mantle of Destiny. Durandal tries to win by defeating the Pfhor, which fails because the Pfhor hold the trump card of a doomsday weapon. Thoth tries to help first the humans, then the Pfhor, then the S'pht, then the Marine, in accordance with his views of the balance of power in Lh'owon. Finally, the Marine steps in (or they collectively give up and turn to him for help, if your post is correct) and does it right, striking at the real problem and winning once and for all.

: Here it seems that the Cyborg plus a freed Durandal can muster up some
: limited time-twisting abilities even without the third facet, and without
: the physical merges which will occur in Infinity. Thoth's absence means
: that they can't navigate across timelines, though, so all they can do in
: Marathon is backtrack down the current timeline and let the Cyborg change
: history "the hard way."

This is a bit contradictory: I thought you suggested that the movements were being performed by D/T from the future, and limited by the distance they must reach across. Incidentally, the above text is the very I agree more with: Durandal knows of the Marine's latent abilities, and is the first one who decides to use them. However, as in Volunteers, this is Durandal's last resort: Throwing the Marine somewhere/somewhen back in time has a (slightly) greater probability of final success than trying to fight the W'rk directly.

: (depending on the time and timeline)
: of all the time-twisting stuff that's been going on--probably knowledge
: uninentionally copied from Durandal by the S'pht who rebooted him.

Except that he was rebooted way back in Marathon 1...

Perhaps Tycho is Durandal, but without the Jjaro components. He literally is Durandal (cp Durandal.app Tycho.app; ./Tycho.app :P ), but he knows that he is an inferior model and he knows what Durandal can do. Since he is just as intelligent as Durandal, he might be able to deduce what's going on.

: If all the timelines were equally
: "real" at all times, finding the successful timeline would be
: meaningless; it'd be out there whether you find it or not, as are the
: failed timelines.

This is why I try to make the end of MI in the same universe as M1 and M2: If the victory is in a seperate timeline, then the Marine hasn't actually done anything at all! He's just looked for a nice place and settled down in it, leaving his "home" timeline to be destroyed.

: your former self destroyed

: "Former" is always hard to define when time travel's involved, but
: I think it most naturally refers to the Cyborg's personal timeline we see
: in-game.

I think this instead refers to his development as a cosmic power throughout the game. His former self is a marine from Earth, reincarnated as a battleroid, shipped to Tau Ceti, kidnapped by Durandal|Tycho and brought into an alien war. His new self is Destiny, or possible the intermediate state during the game when he's trying to master his abilities.

: So apparently most of your memories don't carry over across timelines--you
: retain just some hunches and subconscious drives to help you recall what
: you need to do differently this time around.

I think this problem disappears by the end of the game.

: I think probably it refers to some aspect of timeline-switching.

The "crushing center" may also be the "nexus" popular in time-travel stories, the single point in time, space, and the plot that is the most important determinant of the future.

: The way grows dim

This could also refer to the Marine's "way" of merely following orders and killing what he is told to kill. It has long since become obvious that this alone isn't working.

: You're being reassured that there is a successful timeline out there, where
: the S'pht survive well into the future.

The "falling path" may be the failed timeline. If the W'rkncacnter destroys the universe, that timeline may go with it (begging the question of where exactly it goes, and how this affects attempts to travel to it).

: Your dark mind cutting through/the deeping sky

Slicing open the sky is also a fairly common mythological event. I believe the turning point of Ragnarok occurs when someone does this.

: a cold star looked down on his creations
: and willed that they should kill their sons

: But there is one very probable occurrence of a generational war: the
: conflict between the Jjaro and W'rkncacnter. Recall the Six Thousand Feet
: under message: In primordial space, timeless creatures made waves. These
: waves created us and the others. Waves were the battles, and battles were
: waves.

I don't believe W'rks are capable of real creation. They are the embodiment of chaos, entropy, and destruction, and as such they should only be capable of negative actions. The creations of the dreaming god in Pathways break almost every known law of nature, and I suspect that they vanished with its death (aside from the destruction of the pyramid by the nuclear device).

The scenario An AI Called Wanda had an interesting take on this: I believe it said that W'rkncacnters were accidentally created by the Jjaro during a failed experiment, which would explain why the Jjaro feel so obligated to defeat them. (::Does penances for bringing outside information into a Marathon debate::)

: OK. Discuss or I'll cry!

I suspect there will be a lot of crying, mostly over the length of these posts :)

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Pre-2004 Posts

Replies:

Dream Terminal ThoughtsSiliconDream =PN= 1/13/02 1:53 a.m.
     Good grief!Hamish Sinclair 1/13/02 5:44 a.m.
           Holy Doctoral Thesis Batman! *NT* *NM*Ernie 1/15/02 3:27 p.m.
     Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsMark Levin 1/13/02 6:46 a.m.
           Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsTycho7en 1/13/02 8:20 a.m.
                 Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsCpt. Sqweky 1/14/02 8:32 p.m.
           Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsSiliconDream =PN= 1/13/02 3:47 p.m.
                 Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsAndrew Nagy 1/14/02 7:00 a.m.
                       Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsSiliconDream =PN= 1/14/02 1:54 p.m.
                       Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsSiliconDream =PN= 1/14/02 2:59 p.m.
                             Duplicate post, sorry *NM*SiliconDream =PN= 1/14/02 3:04 p.m.
                             Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsAndrew Nagy 1/18/02 7:24 a.m.
                                   Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsTru7h 1/18/02 9:11 a.m.
                                   Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsSiliconDream =PN= 1/18/02 1:10 p.m.
           Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsAndrew Nagy 1/14/02 7:00 a.m.
     Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsTycho7en 1/13/02 7:43 a.m.
           Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsSiliconDream =PN= 1/13/02 1:22 p.m.
                 Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsTycho7en 1/13/02 3:06 p.m.
                       Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsSiliconDream =PN= 1/13/02 11:31 p.m.
                             Wow, it all makes sense now!Jonah 1/15/02 12:37 a.m.
                             Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsTycho7en 1/15/02 4:04 p.m.
     Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsRincewind MoG 1/13/02 1:23 p.m.
     Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsTru7h 1/13/02 1:49 p.m.
           Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsSiliconDream =PN= 1/13/02 3:59 p.m.
                 Oh, and...SiliconDream =PN= 1/13/02 4:01 p.m.
                       Re: Oh, and...Smasher 1/13/02 7:29 p.m.
                             Re: Oh, and...SiliconDream =PN= 1/13/02 10:55 p.m.



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