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Re: Dream Terminal Thoughts
Posted By: Tycho7enDate: 1/13/02 8:20 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Dream Terminal Thoughts (Mark Levin)

: (after all, where's he living in Fatum Iustum Stultorum after you smashed
: his previous home on Begging for Mercy?).

The Rozinante.

: I don't think the Marine starts timeline-jumping (or that D/T feels it is
: necessary) until the W'rkncacnter comes into play; it is a last resort. I
: still believe that no one has much control over the Marine's jumps until
: late in the game.

You know how dreams work, right? When you're in a nightmare, you're in the middle of some catastrophe. During this catastrophe, you remain consious. Yet no matter what happens to you, it never affects you when you wake up. Of course, you can wake up in a cold sweat, screaming or what else... but that's another story. ;)

So while the marine's Jjaro implants allow him a degree of control through this chaos, I don't believe that he has direct control over his "timeline jumping". Where he ends up is another one of the W'r monster's nightmares. It's just a constant, fluid dream-like chaos.

It's not as complex as some may make it out to be.

: I disagree... I think the dream terminals come from one of 2 sources: Either
: the Marine's Jjaro implants, or his human subconscious. When he receives
: these messages, he is between universes, in a place that does not actually
: exist, where time, space, and location are meaningless, so that he is
: completely cut off from all outside observation and interaction until his
: self-contained Jjaro abilities complete the jump. (One possible objection
: to this is that he is being moved by an external Jjaro system, but then he
: would not be able to gain his independence in the end.) So he has no one
: to talk to but the voices in his head.

The dream levels are an interlude between dreams. You know how when you go from one dream to another, when one ends and another begins... the events aren't very clear because you're going between phases of sleep. Perhaps the dream levels are a phase of the W'r monster's slumber. The dream terminals could be the W'r monster's subconsious, but as you said they could also be the marine's own subconsious, refected in terminal form with his Jjaro implants.

: It's possible that the Marine, Durandal, and Thoth are all the results of
: different schools of Jjaro thought on how to control the future. Thoth is
: prototype 1, the balancer: an entity that tries to find an ideal situation
: based on the current situation and then works as needed to bring things to
: that point and keep them there. Durandal is prototype 2, the conqueror: He
: doesn't have to seek a balance, he is a good enough strategist to be let
: loose to defeat any enemy and remove their threat to the balance
: completely. In general he is a more developed consciousness than Thoth,
: who has a "simple perception" according to Durandal himself. The
: Marine is the final model, who has the least cognitive ability (I'm sure
: the Marine is an exceptional human, but he's no AI :\ ) but the greatest
: ability to alter his world (due to his physical existence), and he is the
: only one who can both make plans (and take orders) and implement them. So
: the course of the game is everyone trying their hand at solving the
: W'rkncacnter problem, with the Marine succeeding and inheriting the mantle
: of Destiny. Durandal tries to win by defeating the Pfhor, which fails
: because the Pfhor hold the trump card of a doomsday weapon. Thoth tries to
: help first the humans, then the Pfhor, then the S'pht, then the Marine, in
: accordance with his views of the balance of power in Lh'owon. Finally, the
: Marine steps in (or they collectively give up and turn to him for help, if
: your post is correct) and does it right, striking at the real problem and
: winning once and for all.

That works.

: This is a bit contradictory: I thought you suggested that the movements were
: being performed by D/T from the future, and limited by the distance they
: must reach across. Incidentally, the above text is the very I agree more
: with: Durandal knows of the Marine's latent abilities, and is the first
: one who decides to use them. However, as in Volunteers, this is Durandal's
: last resort: Throwing the Marine somewhere/somewhen back in time has a
: (slightly) greater probability of final success than trying to fight the
: W'rk directly.

Mmm... I don't think that Durandal himself understand the "jumps" any more than you do. My guess is that he thinks that Tycho might know something that he doesn't and thus transports you to his ship in hopes that you might be able to escape... where the last traces of your old (now heavily dream-influenced) reality end and a dream begins. Durandal's trapped on a Jjaro station, so he doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

Might I add, the W'r monster's dreams are MUCH more deadly than the dreams that you or I have. They affect reality (remember PiD?).

: Perhaps Tycho is Durandal, but without the Jjaro components. He literally is
: Durandal (cp Durandal.app Tycho.app; ./Tycho.app :P ), but he knows that
: he is an inferior model and he knows what Durandal can do. Since he is
: just as intelligent as Durandal, he might be able to deduce what's going
: on.

Tycho does have some traces of his former self (from what you can make out of his history and his last statement before he's rebooted), in that he doesn't have much tolerance for misbehavior. Remember when he didn't talk to Durandal because Durandal was too "sarcastic"?

It's difficult to say what's left of Tycho, since we hardly know about what he was in his non-rampant state.

: This is why I try to make the end of MI in the same universe as M1 and M2: If
: the victory is in a seperate timeline, then the Marine hasn't actually
: done anything at all! He's just looked for a nice place and settled down
: in it, leaving his "home" timeline to be destroyed.

The w'r monster's trapped, his dreams end. Or at the very least, his dreams have been contained. It's quite simple. Everything returns to as it was in the post-M2 ending.

: I think this instead refers to his development as a cosmic power throughout
: the game. His former self is a marine from Earth, reincarnated as a
: battleroid, shipped to Tau Ceti, kidnapped by Durandal|Tycho and brought
: into an alien war. His new self is Destiny, or possible the intermediate
: state during the game when he's trying to master his abilities.

"Destiny" is not what he becomes, it's what he is.

No matter who the marine works with, he's victorious. At least, in his own battles. His masters aren't always as lucky...

(Like my last post, I'll just skip over replying to the rest, simply because I don't have much of anything else to say.)

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Replies:

Dream Terminal ThoughtsSiliconDream =PN= 1/13/02 1:53 a.m.
     Good grief!Hamish Sinclair 1/13/02 5:44 a.m.
           Holy Doctoral Thesis Batman! *NT* *NM*Ernie 1/15/02 3:27 p.m.
     Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsMark Levin 1/13/02 6:46 a.m.
           Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsTycho7en 1/13/02 8:20 a.m.
                 Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsCpt. Sqweky 1/14/02 8:32 p.m.
           Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsSiliconDream =PN= 1/13/02 3:47 p.m.
                 Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsAndrew Nagy 1/14/02 7:00 a.m.
                       Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsSiliconDream =PN= 1/14/02 1:54 p.m.
                       Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsSiliconDream =PN= 1/14/02 2:59 p.m.
                             Duplicate post, sorry *NM*SiliconDream =PN= 1/14/02 3:04 p.m.
                             Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsAndrew Nagy 1/18/02 7:24 a.m.
                                   Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsTru7h 1/18/02 9:11 a.m.
                                   Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsSiliconDream =PN= 1/18/02 1:10 p.m.
           Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsAndrew Nagy 1/14/02 7:00 a.m.
     Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsTycho7en 1/13/02 7:43 a.m.
           Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsSiliconDream =PN= 1/13/02 1:22 p.m.
                 Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsTycho7en 1/13/02 3:06 p.m.
                       Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsSiliconDream =PN= 1/13/02 11:31 p.m.
                             Wow, it all makes sense now!Jonah 1/15/02 12:37 a.m.
                             Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsTycho7en 1/15/02 4:04 p.m.
     Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsRincewind MoG 1/13/02 1:23 p.m.
     Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsTru7h 1/13/02 1:49 p.m.
           Re: Dream Terminal ThoughtsSiliconDream =PN= 1/13/02 3:59 p.m.
                 Oh, and...SiliconDream =PN= 1/13/02 4:01 p.m.
                       Re: Oh, and...Smasher 1/13/02 7:29 p.m.
                             Re: Oh, and...SiliconDream =PN= 1/13/02 10:55 p.m.



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