Re: Eh?


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Re: Eh?

Posted By: Forrest of B.org Date: 1/11/05 3:14 p.m.
In Response To: Re: Eh? (Yossarian)

: What is the definition of logic, in this context, and how is it not
: subjective?
Deductive logic, that which is used to conduct "proofs", in the mathematical sense of an irrefutable demonstration that any possible test of a belief - not just "a whole lot" or "every one so far" but "every one possible".
To ask "how is it not subjective" is nonsensical because logic is by definition that which is not subjective, those rules which are always, consistently true. If there is a situation where a "logical" rule is not true, then that is not actually a logical rule. (Though it may be similar to one, and with some qualification, a real rule may be found).
"Knowledge" is possible without proof - it is merely "very good testing" of a belief. That deductive logic rules are true is an extremely well tested proposition, and thus we can say we "know" it logic works, but it can't be used to prove itself.
Put simply:
"Ideas" are the basic objects of thought.
They are either "true" or not, but not irrefutably labeled as such.
"Belief" is a measure of how strongly an idea is considered true.
To "test" a belief it to check it against contradiction.
"Certainty" is a measure of how well-tested a belief is.
To "know" an idea is to have some certainty of it's truth.
"Proof" is a demonstration that all possible tests will be positive.
So I propose an idea. You don't know if it's true, but it seems so, thus you believe it. Then something raises doubt about your belief, testing it, but the belief still seems true after considering the results of the test. So now you are somewhat certain in that belief, and would say that you know it to be true. Then the step most people don't take, it may be possible to deductively show that all possible tests of it may be true - that for it to be false is complete nonsense. That is proof, which gives complete certainty in your knowledge that the idea you believe is true against all tests.

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Pre-2004 Posts

Replies:

Confusion about the storyline bad brains 1/9/05 9:29 p.m.

Re: Confusion about the storyline Forrest of B.org 1/9/05 10:10 p.m.

Re: Confusion about the storyline K-chi 1/10/05 4:22 a.m.

Re: Confusion about the storyline Steve Levinson 1/10/05 3:09 p.m.

Re: Confusion about the storyline Forrest of B.org 1/10/05 4:04 p.m.

Re: Confusion about the storyline Steve Levinson 1/10/05 6:23 p.m.

Re: Confusion about the storyline Forrest of B.org 1/10/05 7:33 p.m.

Long time travel philosophy post! Head hurts! *NM* ukimalefu 1/10/05 8:19 p.m.

The Philosophy of Time Travel Forrest of B.org 1/10/05 9:28 p.m.

What does time travel have to do with philosophy? *NM* Purple Penguin 1/11/05 6:12 a.m.

You can philosophy about time travel. *NM* ukimalefu 1/11/05 7:16 a.m.

What does epistemology have to do with philosophy? *NM* Forrest of B.org 1/11/05 7:17 a.m.

Philosophy is the search for truth. *NM* K-chi 1/11/05 9:18 a.m.

When you can't prove it and it's speculation. *NM* Adam Ashwell 1/11/05 10:22 a.m.

You can't prove that proof is ever possible. Forrest of B.org 1/11/05 11:23 a.m.

Re: You can't prove that proof is ever possible. blake37 1/11/05 11:51 a.m.

Eh? *NM* Forrest of B.org 1/11/05 11:57 a.m.

Re: Eh? blake37 1/11/05 11:59 a.m.

Re: Eh? Forrest of B.org 1/11/05 12:40 p.m.

Re: Eh? blake37 1/11/05 12:56 p.m.

Re: Eh? Forrest of B.org 1/11/05 1:16 p.m.

Re: Eh? blake37 1/11/05 2:23 p.m.

Re: Eh? Deathmonger 1/11/05 1:46 p.m.

Re: Eh? Forrest of B.org 1/11/05 2:20 p.m.

Re: Eh? Yossarian 1/11/05 2:38 p.m.

Re: Eh? Forrest of B.org 1/11/05 3:14 p.m.

Dayyymn. Fobo has mad logic skilz, yo. [/wigger] *NM* Deathmonger 1/11/05 3:43 p.m.

I'm writing a paper on epistemology & ethics *NM* Forrest of B.org 1/11/05 4:00 p.m.

Re: that explains alot *NM* blake37 1/11/05 4:22 p.m.

Re: Eh? Yossarian 1/11/05 4:57 p.m.

Re: Eh? Forrest of B.org 1/11/05 6:46 p.m.

Welp, I'm satisfied. *NM* Yossarian 1/12/05 3:36 p.m.

I get it! I get it! K-chi 1/11/05 5:42 p.m.

And we're very proud of you too ^_^. *NM* Adam Ashwell 1/11/05 5:43 p.m.

Now, what was the thread originally about again? *NM* Reiginko 1/12/05 3:43 a.m.

Re: Confusion about the storyline Andromeda_5[Kilo] 1/11/05 10:59 a.m.

Re: Confusion about the storyline ukimalefu 1/11/05 4:55 p.m.

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Pre-2004 Posts

Your Name:
Your E-Mail Address:
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: Deductive logic, that which is used to conduct "proofs", in the : mathematical sense of an irrefutable demonstration that any possible test : of a belief - not just "a whole lot" or "every one so : far" but "every one possible". : To ask "how is it not subjective" is nonsensical because logic is : by definition that which is not subjective, those rules which are always, : consistently true. If there is a situation where a "logical" : rule is not true, then that is not actually a logical rule. (Though it may : be similar to one, and with some qualification, a real rule may be found). : "Knowledge" is possible without proof - it is merely "very : good testing" of a belief. That deductive logic rules are true is an : extremely well tested proposition, and thus we can say we "know" : it logic works, but it can't be used to prove itself. : Put simply: "Ideas" are the basic objects of thought. : They are either "true" or not, but not irrefutably labeled as such. : "Belief" is a measure of how strongly an idea is considered true. : To "test" a belief it to check it against contradiction. : "Certainty" is a measure of how well-tested a belief is. : To "know" an idea is to have some certainty of it's truth. : "Proof" is a demonstration that all possible tests will be : positive. : So I propose an idea. You don't know if it's true, but it seems so, thus you : believe it. Then something raises doubt about your belief, testing it, but : the belief still seems true after considering the results of the test. So : now you are somewhat certain in that belief, and would say that you know : it to be true. Then the step most people don't take, it may be possible to : deductively show that all possible tests of it may be true - that for it : to be false is complete nonsense. That is proof, which gives complete : certainty in your knowledge that the idea you believe is true against all : tests.

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Confusion about the storyline	bad brains	1/9/05 9:29 p.m.
Re: Confusion about the storyline	Forrest of B.org	1/9/05 10:10 p.m.
Re: Confusion about the storyline	K-chi	1/10/05 4:22 a.m.
Re: Confusion about the storyline	Steve Levinson	1/10/05 3:09 p.m.
Re: Confusion about the storyline	Forrest of B.org	1/10/05 4:04 p.m.
Re: Confusion about the storyline	Steve Levinson	1/10/05 6:23 p.m.
Re: Confusion about the storyline	Forrest of B.org	1/10/05 7:33 p.m.
Long time travel philosophy post! Head hurts! NM	ukimalefu	1/10/05 8:19 p.m.
The Philosophy of Time Travel	Forrest of B.org	1/10/05 9:28 p.m.
What does time travel have to do with philosophy? NM	Purple Penguin	1/11/05 6:12 a.m.
You can philosophy about time travel. NM	ukimalefu	1/11/05 7:16 a.m.
What does epistemology have to do with philosophy? NM	Forrest of B.org	1/11/05 7:17 a.m.
Philosophy is the search for truth. NM	K-chi	1/11/05 9:18 a.m.
When you can't prove it and it's speculation. NM	Adam Ashwell	1/11/05 10:22 a.m.
You can't prove that proof is ever possible.	Forrest of B.org	1/11/05 11:23 a.m.
Re: You can't prove that proof is ever possible.	blake37	1/11/05 11:51 a.m.
Eh? NM	Forrest of B.org	1/11/05 11:57 a.m.
Re: Eh?	blake37	1/11/05 11:59 a.m.
Re: Eh?	Forrest of B.org	1/11/05 12:40 p.m.
Re: Eh?	blake37	1/11/05 12:56 p.m.
Re: Eh?	Forrest of B.org	1/11/05 1:16 p.m.
Re: Eh?	blake37	1/11/05 2:23 p.m.
Re: Eh?	Deathmonger	1/11/05 1:46 p.m.
Re: Eh?	Forrest of B.org	1/11/05 2:20 p.m.
Re: Eh?	Yossarian	1/11/05 2:38 p.m.
Re: Eh?	Forrest of B.org	1/11/05 3:14 p.m.
Dayyymn. Fobo has mad logic skilz, yo. [/wigger] NM	Deathmonger	1/11/05 3:43 p.m.
I'm writing a paper on epistemology & ethics NM	Forrest of B.org	1/11/05 4:00 p.m.
Re: that explains alot NM	blake37	1/11/05 4:22 p.m.
Re: Eh?	Yossarian	1/11/05 4:57 p.m.
Re: Eh?	Forrest of B.org	1/11/05 6:46 p.m.
Welp, I'm satisfied. NM	Yossarian	1/12/05 3:36 p.m.
I get it! I get it!	K-chi	1/11/05 5:42 p.m.
And we're very proud of you too ^_^. NM	Adam Ashwell	1/11/05 5:43 p.m.
Now, what was the thread originally about again? NM	Reiginko	1/12/05 3:43 a.m.
Re: Confusion about the storyline	Andromeda_5[Kilo]	1/11/05 10:59 a.m.
Re: Confusion about the storyline	ukimalefu	1/11/05 4:55 p.m.



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	Message: : Deductive logic, that which is used to conduct "proofs", in the : mathematical sense of an irrefutable demonstration that any possible test : of a belief - not just "a whole lot" or "every one so : far" but "every one possible". : To ask "how is it not subjective" is nonsensical because logic is : by definition that which is not subjective, those rules which are always, : consistently true. If there is a situation where a "logical" : rule is not true, then that is not actually a logical rule. (Though it may : be similar to one, and with some qualification, a real rule may be found). : "Knowledge" is possible without proof - it is merely "very : good testing" of a belief. That deductive logic rules are true is an : extremely well tested proposition, and thus we can say we "know" : it logic works, but it can't be used to prove itself. : Put simply: "Ideas" are the basic objects of thought. : They are either "true" or not, but not irrefutably labeled as such. : "Belief" is a measure of how strongly an idea is considered true. : To "test" a belief it to check it against contradiction. : "Certainty" is a measure of how well-tested a belief is. : To "know" an idea is to have some certainty of it's truth. : "Proof" is a demonstration that all possible tests will be : positive. : So I propose an idea. You don't know if it's true, but it seems so, thus you : believe it. Then something raises doubt about your belief, testing it, but : the belief still seems true after considering the results of the test. So : now you are somewhat certain in that belief, and would say that you know : it to be true. Then the step most people don't take, it may be possible to : deductively show that all possible tests of it may be true - that for it : to be false is complete nonsense. That is proof, which gives complete : certainty in your knowledge that the idea you believe is true against all : tests.
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