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Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With Narcogen
Posted By: Narcogen <narcogen@rampancy.net>Date: 5/30/11 12:23 a.m.

In Response To: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With Narcogen (Quirel)


: Mind if I go off on a tangent?
: I'm from the Halo Wars Forums. Spent two or three years there, had fun. And
: towards the end, when it became clear that ES had lied about working with
: Bungie, there were all sorts of threads asking why the Cyclops, the Flood,
: Brutes, whatever, had to make it in.

: And inevitably, there was going to be someone who would reply with "Who
: cares, so long as it's fun?"
: I hated those nattering nabobs of narcissism. Hated them. How dare they
: insist that we be as apathetic as they. How. Dare. They.
: And it got worse. There were people who openly recommended that ES dispense
: with prior canon to make a 'better' story. There were people who insisted
: that continuity only got in the way of telling a good story.

I don't agree with that at all.

: And that's how I see you. You're an exclusionist. You're someone who doesn't
: care about the backstory to Halo. You're like the people who've only
: played the games, only know the games, and insist that the games are all
: there is to Halo.

I'll partially agree with that. I have not only played the games. I don't have every piece of additional material, but I have all the novels and have read them all at least once, the older ones more than that. I don't have the short story collection but I'll be getting it. I have the anime. No interest in the graphic novel. A few figurines. Do those count?

What I have reverence for is a primary work. Something that an individual or group of individuals put out. That's Halo, the game, made by Bungie. Everything else is derivative; even Bungie's own sequels. But the further you diverge, the less relation there is between the original work and the new ones and that, to me, makes them less interesting.

I am an exclusionist not because I think maintaining continuity is unimportant but rather because I do think it is important. If additional material does not illuminate the original work, and is not executed at the same level of quality than the original work, then it represents more of a risk of damage to continuity than it provides benefit, and deserves to be treated with some healthy skepticism. The further removed it is from Bungie's own influence and supervision, and the further afield it is from Halo's major settings, characters, and themes, the greater the skepticism.

: But you're smart. I know that. You offer thoughtful arguments. You
: (Typically) don't flamebait. Hell, unlike 99% of the people hooked into
: the internet, you actually use proper spelling and grammar in your posts.

Thanks, I guess?

: You're a smart person, yet you hold an opinion that is not only the polar
: opposite of my own, but you have a view of fiction that I find
: particularly odious. Just try and imagine how frustrating that is for me.

I think original works deserve respect. I think that while an author's intent is not the only way to interpret a work, nor always the best, there is something to be said for placing the progenitors of a franchise in a special position.

I am not against continuity; far from it. My objections are based only on the idea that Bungie should not retcon continuity added to the Haloverse by third parties-- that Microsoft's need to expand Halo into other markets and media should handcuff them to continuity they did not originate, and despite all the friendly language about cooperation and approval, probably had not nearly as much say in as the fans would have liked them to, simply because there aren't enough hours in a day.

Fictional universes benefit greatly from a sense of mystery that is evoked by feeling that the world has history beyond that which is visible. This effect is ruined by revealing that history completely, unless one then goes on to create further mystery (as Bear's novel has done).

: Not a good metric, I'd say.
: The two franchises that have been brought up are Star Trek and Star Wars.
: Star Trek... well, lets just say that my opinion of Roddenberry is not very
: high. It also started out as a television series, which I believe to be
: the worst of medias to develop a sprawling, internally-consistent story.
: Too much executive meddling, too much jockeying for ratings, and the time
: constraints are too hard.

: Star Wars? Lucas. That's the beginning and end of the argument.
: I'll argue that Star Wars is actually a good argument for a collaborative
: effort between different creators. In the beginning, when Lucas had less
: control and more people were working to make up for his shortcomings, we
: had three very good movies. When one guy was calling the shots, we got
: Jar-Jar, midichlorians, and contrived coincidences ahoy.

: Not to say that multiple creators is foolproof. I mean, look at the Ewoks.

: The EU is... well, a mess. The best items come from the authors who actually
: read each other's work, talk to each other, and even ask if they can use
: certain characters. I'm thinking of Zahn, Stackpole, and (Squints at
: bookshelf) Stover.

I think you've proven my point. On what basis does one allege that Bungie's retconning of third-party contributions to Halo canon are particularly egregious in a market where two older, more popular, and more successful science fiction franchises have arguably done a much, much worse job of maintaining continuity?

What examples would be better? What absolute standard, rather than a relative one, would one apply, and who would be its arbiter?

: Fairly low, I'd say.
: Halo has everything going for it to make an expanded universe actually work.
: It was a multi-media franchise from release (Since tFoR came out a month
: before Halo: CE) where the creators had the clout to make sure that the
: expanded content fit with their vision of Halo.

I think you misapprehend a lot. I think you overestimate Bungie's "clout" prior to Halo's release. I think you misapprehend the release of a tie-in novel (which took a lot less time to create than the game) as an intent by Bungie (rather than MS) to make a "multi-media franchise" instead of a "video game with a tie-in novel" because tie-ins make extra revenue and promote your primary products-- in this case, the Xbox and Halo.

I'm honestly not sure I see the value in such a thing, to be brutally honest. Perhaps this is a nascent form I'm simply not giving enough credit to, but it's been my experience that many works that are good in their original form are rarely as good when adapted to another, and very few, if any at all, actually survive the process of being adapted to many different formats-- to say nothing of having many parallel "creators" of different contributions working quasi-independently.

Merely adapting from book to film or the reverse is often a minefield.

They got some of the best
: and brightest to do the Expanded Universe (I stand by Dietz. At the time,
: his writing was pretty good, though I am not a fan of his more recent
: books. Quite the opposite, in fact)

My opinion was that the Dietz novel was not only awful, but completely unnecessary. A naked cash grab, nothing more, and I own it only for purposes of completeness.

: For your reading pleasure,
: http://forums.bungie.org/halo/archive12.pl?read=362177
: http://forums.bungie.org/halo/archive12.pl?read=362323
: http://forums.bungie.org/halo/archive12.pl?read=362884

: As per a Bungie employee, one of the original writers , Bungie participated
: with the writers in creating the product. OF course, they're only human,
: and tFoR was made on a short deadline, so mistakes are understandable. But
: before Reach, I have only observed three instances of friction between
: Bungie and the writers.

I'm intimately familiar with the content of that thread. None of those posts are by a Bungie employee current or former.

When Staten writes that "for better or worse, the novels are canon" that tells me that the descriptions of the interactions between Bungie-- then wholly owned by Microsoft-- and Microsoft and subcontractors were not entirely voluntary, nor entirely to Bungie's satisfaction. That nothing substantive was said of this (which would be commercially harmful to the franchise) is not particularly surprising.

I do not call the novels fanfic, and never have. They are, however, of lesser canonical value, as well, generally speaking, of lesser aesthetic values when compared to examples of the form.

To suggest otherwise is to suggest that "participation in brainstorming sessions, and approving outlines and drafts" is commensurate with authorship, which I don't accept. There is stuff made by Bungie, and there is everything else, and the chasm that stands between them yawns wide. Not all the extra stuff is bad, by any means, but it is simply that: extra.

: -"Please direct all questions about time-traveling Forerunner crystals
: to Nylund, please."
: Let's admit, it was an interesting concept to begin with.

Wow. No, I don't admit that. That entire novel was a train wreck, and the time crystal nonsense was there to deliberately try to create enough time between the end of Halo 1 and the start of Halo 2 to have a significant encounter that turns out to be of no significance.

[snip]

: -"Boren's Syndrome vs Spartan I"
: So, yeah, Bungie retconned Johnson's immunity to the Flood. And yet, it was
: so artfully done.
: Think about it. Given the love Bungie had for mysteries back then, I'm not
: even sure it's a retcon. They knew that Johnson would be back for Halo 2.

No, they didn't, at least not when they made Halo 1, in which "sniper sergeant" did not even have a name.

: Nylund had one idea for why he avoided infection, Bungie had another,
: maybe Staten had a third, fourth, and fifth. When discussing it, they find
: a way to put together different ideas and make it work organically.
: My point is, the perfect retcon is one indistinguishable from something that
: had been planned all along. And if this is a retcon, it was a pretty good
: one.

Not having assigned any particular significance to a footnote in a novel that Bungie didn't deem worthy of inclusion in the game-- Johnson specifically refuses to explain his own survival in Halo 2-- the existence of this retcon or its artfulness was of no particular signficance to me. If anything, this just makes the continuity messier-- better not to have addressed the question at all.

: -"Halo Wars"
: OK, Bungie and Microsoft were having separation anxieties, ES wasn't sure if
: it could legally access the Halo Bible or old concept art. It was produced
: without any input from Bungie.
: And ES really didn't give a crap in the first place.

I'm sorry-- but that's nonsense. There was never any legal question regarding ES access to the Halo Bible, nor could there have been. Bungie Studios was not a separate legal entity-- it was a department within Microsoft. Microsoft could hardly have assigned the development of a Halo RTS to another internal studio, Ensemble Studios, and had any questions at all about access to the Halo Bible.

If Bungie had no involvement it was likely because one or more of the following things were true:

1) Bungie had no interest in being involved
2) Bungie had no time or resources to be involved
3) MS did not want Bungie to be involved
4) Ensemble did not want Bungie to be involved

1) and 2) are largely self-explanatory, while 3) and 4) might be directly tied to the idea that you brought up-- that maintaining continuity might actually hurt the product as an independent work. It is difficult to assign significance to events that cannot touch your main plotline at any point; we've seen this as a difficulty in ODST, in Reach, and in Halo Wars.

[snip]

: Your entire view of fiction, unfortunately, is alien to me. Not just alien.
: It's like an Eldritch Abomination, from which I can only flee.

: From what I can understand of your approach to dates, appearances, and such,
: you view fiction in a bare-bones, Gilgamesh-level of detail. The whole of
: Halo: CE is boiled down to

: "John 117 fighting Covenant on a giant ringworld made by Forerunner. In
: the first level, he woke up, retrieved Cortana, and made his way to the
: lifeboats. In the second level, he fought off Covenant strike teams and
: regrouped with a bunch of Marines, with help from Foehammer. In the next
: level, he fought his way onto a Covenant capital ship with Johnson and a
: group of Marines, rescued Keyes, and escaped. Here, he learned about
: Halo."

: And so on. You reduce the story down to the bare details, when those details
: are what make Halo into Halo.

Please allow me to clarify.

The details and their execution are indeed what raise Halo above the level of an elevator pitch, which is essentially what the summary above is.

However, what is significant is that the details exist-- not the details themselves!

What I mean is this. Look at some of the Halo manuals. They all have a lot of what would seem like extraneous details about the weapons, their history, and how they work, including specifications for ammunition.

These are of no signficance. By that, what I mean is that if the rounds for a particular gun were 7.64mm instead of 7.62mm, this does not change the outcome of the war. The existence of the detail is to build verisimilitude. The enemy of verisimilitude is discontinuity, and the proliferation of additional details in spinoff materials is what leads, inevitably, to an increase in discontinuity.

What the specs show me is that the world has been thought-out; by their very existence. A conflict between two sources on those values-- or calendar dates, or timestamps, or any other detail-- is, to me, an error in transcription and nothing more, not an error in the work itself, which is separate from its implementation in any particular form.

: What makes this patently absurd is your insistence that a model of the PoA is
: just a representation, with no details that can be derived from it. A
: model or a picture of something in a story is used because that is what
: the object is supposed to be. That's what the readers or players are
: supposed to latch onto and say "Yeah, that's the Pillar of
: Autumn" or "That's the X-Wing".

Until you can step inside that "representation" and travel faster than the speed of light, there is an important distinction to be made between representations and the things they represent-- even within the context of a fiction.

The PoA exists to fulfill its function. It is not a real object. It is a symbolic object. As such, very few of the attributes it has are of significance to the story if they do not contribute directly to that function. As long as it is recognizable-- which it is in Reach-- and the changed details do not prevent it from being recognized, or prevent it from fulfilling its function, then it is still the PoA.

Staten wrote that new takes precedence over old, and Bungie takes precedence over non-Bungie. I accept this, as I accept Bungie's general authority over their creation, and the events of Halo: Reach to be-- for better or worse-- the definitive version, overriding other versions where necessary.

You know a fictional universe has gone wrong when its fanbase diverges from its creator, as it has done, to some extent, with Lucas. I see nothing that justifies that here, in Reach or anywhere.

Death by intelligence



Message Index




Replies:

Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/11/11 6:11 p.m.
     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreFrankie 5/11/11 6:16 p.m.
           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/11/11 6:20 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymorePhoenix_9286 5/11/11 6:54 p.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreQuirel 5/11/11 11:21 p.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymorePhoenix_9286 5/12/11 12:19 a.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreLurono 5/12/11 11:21 a.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreGeneral Vagueness 5/12/11 1:09 p.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreQuirel 5/12/11 1:20 p.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreGeneral Vagueness 5/12/11 3:24 p.m.
                                               i somewhat agreenomis78 5/16/11 4:21 p.m.
                                                     oh and marty on music *NM*nomis78 5/16/11 4:59 p.m.
           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymorepadraig08 5/11/11 6:22 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreAzo 'Galvat 5/11/11 9:54 p.m.
     tl;dr: "I grew up, and I like Ren & Stimpy" *NM*Pkmnrulz240 5/11/11 6:24 p.m.
     Are those really retcons?General Battuta 5/11/11 6:25 p.m.
           Re: Are those really retcons?Cody Miller 5/11/11 6:31 p.m.
                 Re: Are those really retcons?General Battuta 5/11/11 6:44 p.m.
                       Re: No, they're not.Ranger15S 5/11/11 7:15 p.m.
                       Re: Are those really retcons?General Vagueness 5/11/11 9:15 p.m.
                             Re: Are those really retcons?General Battuta 5/11/11 10:12 p.m.
                 Nope, it isn't.Narcogen 5/12/11 2:13 a.m.
     Retcons are Art *NM*NartFOpc 5/11/11 6:26 p.m.
     Ren and Stimpy why you should not care about canon *NM*ZaneZavin 5/11/11 6:31 p.m.
     Thank God *NM*RC Master 5/11/11 6:47 p.m.
     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/11/11 6:58 p.m.
           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreGeneral Vagueness 5/11/11 9:25 p.m.
     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreDarkS7G 5/11/11 7:36 p.m.
           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/11/11 9:32 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymorepadraig08 5/11/11 10:08 p.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/12/11 6:07 a.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreDEEP NNN 5/12/11 6:30 a.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/12/11 11:01 a.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreDEEP NNN 5/12/11 11:57 a.m.
                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/12/11 2:54 p.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreRevenant1988 5/12/11 7:41 a.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreDMFanella 5/12/11 8:46 a.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreRevenant1988 5/12/11 9:08 a.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymorepadraig08 5/12/11 1:41 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreDMFanella 5/12/11 8:37 a.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreRevenant1988 5/12/11 9:15 a.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreDMFanella 5/12/11 9:37 a.m.
                                   Fanella playing HW *IMG*Revenant1988 5/12/11 10:54 a.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreDarkS7G 5/12/11 2:29 p.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/12/11 3:02 p.m.
     The Roto-Rooter man finally gets a break. *NM*Captain Spark 5/11/11 7:40 p.m.
     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreFlynn J Taggart 5/11/11 7:45 p.m.
     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreGeneral Vagueness 5/11/11 9:09 p.m.
     I disagree on many pointsuberfoop 5/11/11 10:36 p.m.
           To clarify.uberfoop 5/11/11 11:10 p.m.
           Re: I disagree on many pointsscarab 5/12/11 3:05 a.m.
     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreSimpsons Rule 5/11/11 10:38 p.m.
           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/11/11 11:13 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/12/11 2:13 a.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/12/11 12:05 p.m.
                             Cautious skepticism.Narcogen 5/13/11 1:38 a.m.
                                   Re: Cautious skepticism.Cody Miller 5/13/11 11:14 a.m.
                                         Re: Cautious skepticism.Quirel 5/13/11 7:04 p.m.
                                               Re: Cautious skepticism.scarab 5/14/11 1:59 a.m.
                                                     Re: Cautious skepticism.resplendentvole 5/14/11 10:08 a.m.
                                                     Re: Cautious skepticism.Quirel 5/14/11 3:24 p.m.
                                         Re: Cautious skepticism.Narcogen 5/15/11 10:52 p.m.
                                   Re: Cautious skepticism.Quirel 5/27/11 2:26 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreSimpsons Rule 5/15/11 11:58 p.m.
     And another sees the lightPsychoRaven 5/11/11 10:49 p.m.
           Although I still disagreePsychoRaven 5/11/11 10:52 p.m.
     I'll just be bothered for you then... *NM*The Loot 5/11/11 11:23 p.m.
     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreQuirel 5/11/11 11:26 p.m.
     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/12/11 2:08 a.m.
           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/12/11 11:14 a.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreArteenEsben 5/12/11 4:50 p.m.
                       I'm picking upkidtsunami 5/12/11 5:19 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreGeneral Vagueness 5/13/11 1:36 a.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/13/11 2:16 a.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/13/11 11:26 a.m.
                             Wait a minute.uberfoop 5/13/11 4:04 p.m.
                                   Re: Wait a minute.Cody Miller 5/13/11 4:31 p.m.
                                         Re: Wait a minute.uberfoop 5/13/11 6:34 p.m.
                                               Wait, did I really just...?uberfoop 5/13/11 6:48 p.m.
                                               Re: Wait a minute.Cody Miller 5/13/11 6:59 p.m.
                                                     Re: Wait a minute.Quirel 5/13/11 7:51 p.m.
                                                     Re: Wait a minute.Hawaiian Pig 5/14/11 6:13 p.m.
                                               Not about Limbo.Narcogen 5/15/11 11:06 p.m.
                                         Re: Wait a minute.General Vagueness 5/14/11 2:27 p.m.
                                         Re: Wait a minute.Narcogen 5/15/11 10:57 p.m.
                                               Re: Wait a minute.Cody Miller 5/15/11 11:13 p.m.
                                                     Re: Wait a minute.Hoovaloov 5/16/11 5:47 a.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/15/11 10:55 p.m.
     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreArchilen 5/12/11 2:56 a.m.
           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/12/11 6:08 a.m.
     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreHawaiian Pig 5/12/11 9:54 a.m.
     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreEvil Otto 5/12/11 12:51 p.m.
           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreEvil Otto 5/12/11 12:57 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreAvateur 5/12/11 12:59 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreFyreWulff 5/12/11 1:08 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreHawaiian Pig 5/12/11 3:39 p.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/12/11 4:27 p.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/12/11 5:45 p.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreQuirel 5/12/11 6:00 p.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/12/11 6:31 p.m.
                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreQuirel 5/12/11 7:06 p.m.
                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/12/11 8:28 p.m.
                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/12/11 9:27 p.m.
                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreQuirel 5/12/11 10:11 p.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreEvil Otto 5/12/11 4:31 p.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreQuirel 5/12/11 5:42 p.m.
                                   My thoughts exactly ^ *NM*Hawaiian Pig 5/13/11 1:08 a.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/13/11 11:20 a.m.
                                         Are you playing Devil's advocate? *NM*scarab 5/13/11 12:49 p.m.
                                               Re: Are you playing Devil's advocate?Hawaiian Pig 5/14/11 6:20 p.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreuberfoop 5/13/11 4:36 p.m.
                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/13/11 4:50 p.m.
                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreuberfoop 5/13/11 5:35 p.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreSimpsons Rule 5/16/11 12:12 a.m.
                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/16/11 1:13 a.m.
                                                     Thoughts and conspiracies...Leviathan 5/16/11 2:22 a.m.
                                                           Re: Thoughts and conspiracies...Narcogen 5/16/11 3:52 a.m.
                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreuberfoop 5/16/11 2:44 a.m.
                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/16/11 4:05 a.m.
                                                                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreuberfoop 5/16/11 7:36 p.m.
                                                                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/17/11 12:13 a.m.
                                                                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreuberfoop 5/17/11 3:24 a.m.
                                                                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/17/11 5:39 a.m.
                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/16/11 8:16 a.m.
                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreLeviathan 5/16/11 10:13 a.m.
                                                                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/16/11 11:43 a.m.
                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/17/11 12:15 a.m.
                                                                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/17/11 10:18 a.m.
                                                                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreLouis Wu 5/17/11 10:56 a.m.
                                                                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreLeviathan 5/17/11 11:46 a.m.
                                                                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymorescarab 5/17/11 3:13 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreLeviathan 5/17/11 4:35 p.m.
                                                                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/17/11 1:22 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreBry 5/17/11 1:40 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/17/11 1:50 p.m.
                                                                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreBry 5/17/11 1:57 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/18/11 12:12 a.m.
                                                                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/18/11 8:54 a.m.
                                                                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreLouis Wu 5/18/11 9:20 a.m.
                                                                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/18/11 9:57 a.m.
                                                                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/18/11 11:29 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/19/11 6:56 a.m.
                                                                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/20/11 1:23 a.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/20/11 7:03 a.m.
                                                                                                                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/20/11 11:34 p.m.
                                                                                                                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/21/11 8:47 a.m.
                                                                                                                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/22/11 11:33 p.m.
                                                                                                                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/23/11 8:10 a.m.
                                                                                                                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreBry 5/23/11 9:06 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/23/11 10:01 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreBry 5/23/11 10:53 a.m.
                                                                                                                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreGeneral Vagueness 5/23/11 10:31 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreQuirel 5/23/11 11:48 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreArchilen 5/24/11 1:44 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/24/11 6:18 a.m.
                                                                                                                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/24/11 1:01 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreQuirel 5/24/11 2:11 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreArchilen 5/24/11 3:24 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/24/11 4:07 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/24/11 8:03 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/24/11 3:36 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreBry 5/24/11 5:45 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/24/11 6:34 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             You can't please everyone all of the time *NM*Bry 5/24/11 6:37 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenQuirel 5/27/11 3:23 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With Narcogenuberfoop 5/27/11 4:54 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenCody Miller 5/27/11 5:00 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenBeckx 5/27/11 6:10 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   The guy who mage Greedo shoot first *NM*scarab 5/28/11 3:56 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/27/11 5:25 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenQuirel 5/27/11 7:03 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/27/11 7:46 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenQuirel 5/27/11 8:39 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                         My take.BlueNinja 5/28/11 6:58 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenGeneral Vagueness 5/27/11 6:30 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/27/11 6:51 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       +1 *NM*Document 5/28/11 4:30 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenDocument 5/28/11 5:42 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Great post. Love it.Gravemind 5/28/11 5:53 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Great post. Love it.Quirel 5/29/11 2:15 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenNarcogen 5/30/11 12:23 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/30/11 6:50 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenGeneral Vagueness 5/30/11 10:46 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With Narcogenpete_the_duck 5/30/11 11:01 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenGravemind 5/30/11 8:04 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/30/11 8:15 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                               o_OArithmomaniac 5/30/11 9:07 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: o_OStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/30/11 11:02 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenNarcogen 5/31/11 12:11 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/31/11 6:45 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenNarcogen 6/1/11 1:21 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenStephen L. (SoundEffect) 6/1/11 6:55 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                           Commentary Transcripts.Narcogen 6/2/11 3:00 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Commentary Transcripts.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 6/2/11 7:07 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Commentary Transcripts.Gravemind 6/2/11 1:17 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Commentary Transcripts.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 6/2/11 1:20 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Commentary Transcripts.Dagoonite 6/2/11 5:04 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Commentary Transcripts.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 6/2/11 7:06 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Commentary Transcripts.Narcogen 6/3/11 12:29 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Commentary Transcripts.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 6/3/11 8:14 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Commentary Transcripts.Louis Wu 6/3/11 8:27 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Chips.Hedgemony 6/3/11 8:40 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       338 repliesCody Miller 6/3/11 7:26 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: 338 repliesQuirel 6/3/11 7:47 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: 338 repliesLouis Wu 6/3/11 8:01 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Commentary Transcripts.Narcogen 6/5/11 11:04 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Commentary Transcripts.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 6/6/11 6:32 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Commentary Transcripts.General Vagueness 6/3/11 8:49 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Commentary Transcripts.Narcogen 6/5/11 11:07 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Commentary Transcripts.Narcogen 6/3/11 12:25 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Commentary Transcripts.resplendentvole 6/2/11 2:14 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Commentary Transcripts.scarab 6/2/11 4:49 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Commentary Transcripts.Narcogen 6/3/11 12:30 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Commentary Transcripts.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 6/2/11 7:10 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Commentary Transcripts.Narcogen 6/3/11 12:39 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Commentary Transcripts.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 6/3/11 8:17 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Commentary Transcripts.Narcogen 6/3/11 12:19 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenGeneral Vagueness 5/30/11 10:51 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Johnson's survivalDocument 5/30/11 4:19 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenGeneral Vagueness 5/30/11 10:56 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With Narcogenpete_the_duck 5/30/11 11:09 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/30/11 11:20 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenNarcogen 5/31/11 12:22 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/31/11 6:24 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenNarcogen 6/1/11 1:11 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenStephen L. (SoundEffect) 6/1/11 6:33 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenNarcogen 6/2/11 1:29 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenGeneral Vagueness 5/30/11 11:34 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenGeneral Vagueness 5/30/11 11:44 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenNarcogen 5/31/11 12:29 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenLeisandir 5/31/11 12:05 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenLouis Wu 5/31/11 12:09 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenCody Miller 5/31/11 12:49 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenNarcogen 6/1/11 1:13 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenLouis Wu 6/1/11 7:07 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenNarcogen 6/2/11 1:28 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenNarcogen 5/31/11 12:17 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Johnson's character statusDocument 5/30/11 4:09 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Reprise: Testing size limits on individual posts.Quirel 6/5/11 2:53 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Reprise: Testing size limits on individual posStephen L. (SoundEffect) 6/5/11 8:24 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Quirel- okay here's the response.Narcogen 6/13/11 5:01 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Quirel- okay here's the response.scarab 6/13/11 7:09 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/24/11 6:55 a.m.
                                                                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreGeneral Vagueness 5/17/11 12:26 p.m.
                                                                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/17/11 1:33 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreGeneral Vagueness 5/17/11 1:37 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/17/11 1:54 p.m.
                                                                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreGeneral Vagueness 5/17/11 2:24 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/17/11 5:34 p.m.
                                                                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreagdtinman 5/17/11 6:49 p.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreBry 5/17/11 8:34 p.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/17/11 9:48 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreBry 5/17/11 1:44 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/17/11 1:53 p.m.
                                                                                   Wrong example.Louis Wu 5/17/11 2:22 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Wrong example.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/17/11 5:39 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Wrong example.Narcogen 5/18/11 12:33 a.m.
                                                                                               Re: Wrong example.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/18/11 8:33 a.m.
                                                                                                     Re: Wrong example.Narcogen 5/18/11 11:34 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/18/11 12:27 a.m.
                                                                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/17/11 11:37 p.m.
                                                                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/18/11 6:44 a.m.
                                                                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/18/11 7:27 a.m.
                                                                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/18/11 9:52 a.m.
                                                                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/18/11 11:40 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/19/11 6:24 a.m.
                                                                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/19/11 6:52 a.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/19/11 8:17 a.m.
                                                                                                                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/20/11 1:26 a.m.
                                                                                                                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/20/11 7:22 a.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/13/11 2:25 a.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/13/11 11:17 a.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreHawaiian Pig 5/14/11 6:10 p.m.
                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/15/11 2:55 a.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/15/11 10:59 p.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreBry 5/12/11 4:33 p.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreAvateur 5/12/11 4:48 p.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreBeckx 5/12/11 5:01 p.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreAvateur 5/12/11 5:10 p.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymorescarab 5/12/11 6:09 p.m.
                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreBeckx 5/13/11 7:35 a.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreBry 5/12/11 5:10 p.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreAvateur 5/12/11 5:25 p.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreQuirel 5/12/11 5:31 p.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/12/11 5:50 p.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreGeneral Vagueness 5/12/11 7:56 p.m.
                       How to Still Care About Halo.Narcogen 5/15/11 11:01 p.m.
                             Re: How to Still Care About Halo.Hoovaloov 5/16/11 7:17 a.m.
                                   Re: How to Still Care About Halo.Narcogen 5/17/11 12:17 a.m.
                             Well said.Kermit 5/16/11 9:55 a.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/13/11 2:22 a.m.
           I like this post *NM*Avateur 5/12/11 12:58 p.m.
           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreDuncan 5/12/11 4:38 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymorescarab 5/12/11 6:18 p.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreHoovaloov 5/16/11 7:20 a.m.
           I liked it better when humans were forerunnersFlynn J Taggart 5/12/11 6:36 p.m.
           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymore *SP*Narcogen 5/13/11 2:21 a.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymore *SP*mc_leprechaun 5/13/11 12:07 p.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymore *SP*scarab 5/13/11 12:46 p.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymore *SP*mc_leprechaun 5/13/11 4:03 p.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymore *SP*Narcogen 5/15/11 10:53 p.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymore *SP*Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/16/11 6:26 a.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymore *SP*Dagoonite 5/16/11 9:40 a.m.
     Why Retcons annoy me to no end...The BS Police 5/16/11 5:41 a.m.
           Re: Why Retcons annoy me to no end...RC Master 5/16/11 10:54 a.m.
                 Re: Why Retcons annoy me to no end...General Vagueness 5/16/11 11:56 a.m.
                       Re: Why Retcons annoy me to no end...The BS Police 5/16/11 3:46 p.m.
                             Re: Why Retcons annoy me to no end...General Vagueness 5/16/11 6:17 p.m.
     .....The Hell's A Retcon? (/dumb) *NM*Morpheus 5/16/11 8:24 a.m.
           Re: .....The Hell's A Retcon? (/dumb)Beckx 5/16/11 9:01 a.m.
           Retroactive Continuity...GrimBrother One 5/16/11 9:02 a.m.
                 Re: Retroactive Continuity...Morpheus 5/16/11 1:59 p.m.
                       Re: Retroactive Continuity...Quirel 5/16/11 6:42 p.m.
                             Re: Retroactive Continuity...Unique Name 5/16/11 7:27 p.m.
                                   Re: Retroactive Continuity...Quirel 5/16/11 7:54 p.m.
                                         You make no sense!ZackDark 5/16/11 9:00 p.m.
                                               Re: You make no sense!Quirel 5/16/11 10:20 p.m.
                                                     Re: You make no sense!Beckx 5/17/11 8:21 a.m.
                                                           Re: You make no sense!ZackDark 5/17/11 10:30 a.m.
     Why retcons do bother me.Gravemind 5/24/11 4:45 p.m.
           Re: Why retcons do bother me.General Vagueness 5/24/11 6:25 p.m.
           Amen, brother! *NM*The Loot 5/24/11 6:50 p.m.
           I've said it before, I'll say it again...Lurono 5/24/11 7:41 p.m.
                 Re: I've said it before, I'll say it again...The Loot 5/24/11 8:57 p.m.
                       Re: I've said it before, I'll say it again...General Battuta 5/24/11 8:58 p.m.
                 Re: I've said it before, I'll say it again...General Battuta 5/24/11 8:57 p.m.
                       Re: I've said it before, I'll say it again...Lurono 5/24/11 9:22 p.m.
                       Re: I've said it before, I'll say it again...The Loot 5/24/11 9:48 p.m.
           Re: Why retcons do bother me.Narcogen 5/25/11 8:01 a.m.
                 Re: Why retcons do bother me.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/25/11 8:30 a.m.
                       Re: Why retcons do bother me.Narcogen 5/26/11 12:10 a.m.
                             Re: Why retcons do bother me.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/26/11 7:12 a.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons do bother me.Narcogen 5/26/11 7:46 a.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons do bother me.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/26/11 1:07 p.m.
                                               Re: Why retcons do bother me.Narcogen 5/26/11 11:19 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons do bother me.Archilen 5/25/11 11:43 a.m.
                       Re: Why retcons do bother me.Narcogen 5/26/11 12:14 a.m.
                             Re: Why retcons do bother me.Cody Miller 5/26/11 12:17 a.m.
                       Re: Why retcons do bother me.Narcogen 5/26/11 12:21 a.m.



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