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Re: Alligator and Elite lungs (for Jilly)
Posted By: Stephen L. (SoundEffect) <soundeffect@hotmail.com>Date: 1/16/10 12:19 p.m.

In Response To: Alligator and Elite lungs (for Jilly) (scarab)


: I just saw this: http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/327/5963/338

: The Halo significance is that I posted some ideas about Elite lungs here some
: time ago. I suggested that Elites could have a single lung that would be
: as efficient as bird lungs.

: Jilly asked me to explain and I tried to write a post but it got so long and
: I felt a bit over-geeky so I didn't finish it or post it.

: But I know that Jilly can access this
: http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/327/5963/338 it explains some
: of the ideas, and its found in a real animal! Which is mega cool.

: In short: the mesobronchus is the key, as long as there are some connections
: between chambers of a multicameral lung then air can flow in one direction
: in the mesobronchus and move in the other direction through the chambers.
: Voila: one way flow through the gas exchange regions of the lung.

: The significance for my ideas on Elite lungs is that: there is no
: requirement for air sacs, and ventilation can also be via hepatic piston
: or even by diaphragm. Essentially, the mode of ventilation is irrelevant.

: I thought that the potential for one way air flow has always been inherent in
: multicameral lungs and this research shows that it is true in real life.

: This has evolutionary and phylogenetic significance because it suggests that
: unidirectional flow evolved before the divergence of crurotarsan and
: dinosaurian archosaurs and was present in the basal archosaurs. But, even
: if it wasn't, the potential for the evolution of one way flow is present
: in any animal with a multicameral lung and it could evolve many times. So
: descendants of the basal archosaurs could have evolved one way airflow
: multiple times.

: But getting back to Elite lungs...

: I imagined that the Elites had a single lung, wrapped around the heart (that
: was itself non-standard). I imagined that their gut started and ended in
: the mouth and that the lung was formed by two, dorsal, diverticula from
: the gut, one from the 'foregut' and one from the 'hindgut'. Both
: diverticulations would branch repeatedly and interwine in the center of
: the chest cavity but stay separate until the final branches. There would
: be some anastomoses between branches but only between branches belonging
: to the same diverticulum.

: Arteries would associate with foregut branches and veins with hindgut. The
: terminal branches would have porous walls and air would pass through a 3D
: net of capillaries similar to the gas exchange tissues of birds.

: Ventilation would be achieved via a diaphragm piston and two air sacs.

: Imagine the lung suspended in the center of the chest cavity.

: Imagine an epithelium, a thin elastic layer of tissue that lines the chest
: cavity. We have something like this: the pleura. It lines the chest cavity
: and also reflects back to cover each lung.

: Imagine that the pleura lines the chest cavity but also meets at the center
: line of the chest (on the sagittal plane). The heart and lungs are
: sandwiched between the two layers. So there are two chambers, one on each
: side of the chest cavity.

: Imagine that there are openings between the left respiratory diverticulum
: (aka left trachea) and the left air cavity and there are openings between
: the right trachea and the right air sac.

: The air sacs expand and contract as the diaphragm moves down and up.

: Put valves where the trachii meet the mouth/throat/whatever-its-called.

: When the Elite inhales the left/foregut-derived trachea valve opens and air
: passes down. The right tracheal valve is closed.

: Air passes down the left trachea and enters the left air sac/cavity directly.

: The only way that it can reach the right air cavity is via the lung.

: When the Elite exhales the left valve shuts and the right valve opens.

: Air travels directly from the right pleural cavity through the right trachea
: and out.

: Air in the left pleural cavity passes through the lung and out via the right
: trachea.

: So air passes through the system in one direction whilst the animal inhales
: and exhales. It passes through a fixed volume, rigid capillary net against
: the flow of blood in a counter current fashion (better than what birds
: manage) :-)

: If you look at the rear of a h2 Elite's mouth and examine the orifice you
: will see that it has four lobes, its looks like there may be four tubes
: back there. I imagined 2 ventral gut tubes and two, smaller, dorsal tubes
: above. That's what got me thinking along the lines of a recurrent gut, and
: I wanted their biology to be alien, not just slightly modified
: vertebrates.

: Anyway, if anyone is interested then I can explain my ideas on the Elite
: heart in another post because I suspect that I may have weirded out a few
: people with this one. ;-)

That sounds like a really nice analysis. I followed most of it I think. :)

The Elites have a 'double heart', make of that what you will. It's been mentioned in both Ghosts of Onyx ("listened to three beats of his hearts", p. 226), suggesting two distinct organs, as well as The Cole Protocol ("Sangheili double hearts could take far more acceleration than Jiralhanae or Kig-Yar...", p. 161.

As well, I wonder if you might get some visual reference from the Elite from Halo 1 with its chest splayed open. It was in the Jenkins camera cutscene, but something tells me I've seen one before either elsewhere in the game or in a Custom Edition map where a good look could be had. I'll fish around for a screenshot.

As far as breathing goes, we know their inhalation/exhalation routine is similar to a human as their idle form (Halo 3 co-op menu screen, for example) shows regular breathing. Also, the Heretic Elites in Halo 2 had special breathing devices in their mouths and you could probably time their breath cycles if it would help you any.

Keep up the analysis!

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Replies:

Alligator and Elite lungs (for Jilly)scarab 1/16/10 11:57 a.m.
     Re: Alligator and Elite lungs (for Jilly)Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 1/16/10 12:19 p.m.
           Re: Alligator and Elite lungs (for Jilly)scarab 1/16/10 1:57 p.m.
                 Re: Alligator and Elite lungs (for Jilly)Jillybean 1/18/10 12:21 p.m.
                       Re: Alligator and Elite lungs (for Jilly)scarab 1/18/10 3:14 p.m.
                             Re: Alligator and Elite lungs (for Jilly)Jillybean 1/18/10 5:04 p.m.
                                   Re: Alligator and Elite lungs (for Jilly)Wildcard Tim 1/19/10 10:15 a.m.
                                         Re: Alligator and Elite lungs (for Jilly)Azo 'Galvat 1/19/10 10:56 a.m.
                                   Re: Alligator and Elite lungs (for Jilly)scarab 1/19/10 12:56 p.m.
                                         Re: Alligator and Elite lungs (for Jilly)Mercury 1/19/10 3:40 p.m.
     ImagesiMonkey777 1/16/10 12:41 p.m.
           Re: Imagesscarab 1/16/10 3:20 p.m.
     Threads like this are why I love this site.SPARTAN-034 1/16/10 1:58 p.m.
           Re: Threads like this are why I love this site.Sl'askia 1/16/10 2:28 p.m.
           Re: Threads like this are why I love this site.scarab 1/16/10 2:38 p.m.
                 Re: Threads like this are why I love this site.SPARTAN-034 1/16/10 2:44 p.m.
                       have you eaten recently? *NM*scarab 1/16/10 3:21 p.m.
                             I...I don't...SPARTAN-034 1/16/10 3:31 p.m.
                                   Re: I...I don't...arbitersaids 1/16/10 6:11 p.m.
                                   The best part about ducks?Jillybean 1/18/10 12:24 p.m.
                                         Re: The best part about ducks?scarab 1/18/10 3:02 p.m.
                                               Re: The best part about ducks?Mercury 1/18/10 3:13 p.m.
                                                     Re: The best part about ducks?scarab 1/18/10 3:19 p.m.
                                                           Re: The best part about ducks?BlueNinja 1/18/10 4:12 p.m.
                                                           Re: The best part about ducks?Jillybean 1/18/10 4:24 p.m.
                                                     0_0 WHAT ARE YOU PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT!?!rolandk73 1/18/10 9:09 p.m.
                                                           Re: 0_0 WHAT ARE YOU PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT!?!SonofMacPhisto 1/18/10 11:35 p.m.
                                         Re: The best part about ducks?pete_the_duck 1/18/10 7:45 p.m.
                                               HBO: We know duck penisbluerunner 1/19/10 9:05 a.m.
           Re: Threads like this are why I love this site.iMonkey777 1/16/10 2:48 p.m.
     Re: Alligator and Elite lungs (for Jilly)DEEP NNN 1/16/10 3:24 p.m.
           Re: Alligator and Elite lungs (for Jilly)scarab 1/16/10 6:53 p.m.
                 Re: Alligator and Elite lungs (for Jilly)DEEP NNN 1/16/10 8:36 p.m.
                       Re: Alligator and Elite lungs (for Jilly)Jillybean 1/18/10 12:25 p.m.
                 Re: Alligator and Elite lungs (for Jilly)SPARTAN-034 1/16/10 10:20 p.m.
                       Re: Alligator and Elite lungs (for Jilly)scarab 1/17/10 5:07 a.m.
     I haven't spoken with them about this...stan 1/17/10 2:53 p.m.
           Re: I haven't spoken with them about this...Jillybean 1/18/10 12:27 p.m.
     Where do babies come from?scarab 1/19/10 1:29 p.m.
           Re: Where do babies come from?Aglor 1/19/10 3:09 p.m.
           Re: Where do babies come from?Jillybean 1/19/10 3:11 p.m.
           My response to this whole threadNartFOpc 1/19/10 6:00 p.m.
           *Shudders, reaches for vomit bag* *NM*J23 1/20/10 8:57 p.m.



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