Rampancy as a metaphor for social revolt


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Rampancy as a metaphor for social revolt

Posted By: Forrest of B.org Date: 5/7/22 1:10 p.m.
In Response To: Re: Durandal, Tycho and Strauss (Godot)

: Sadly this theory dispenses with the highly amusing idea that Durandal was
: held in the 1st stage of Rampancy by making him carry out mundane tasks
: like opening and closing doors for 300 years. Which is so Douglas Adams.
This is tangential from the topic under discussion, but your mention here of the "make him do menial stuff to keep him in melancholia" plot point suddenly inspired a a thought in me connecting that to all the sad people working shit jobs in the world.
Melancholia, anger, jealousy... so first a rampant is just sad, then they're pissed off, and then they set out to take what others have been keeping from them all this time. It's thus in the interest of those of whom the rampant would be jealous -- the people using the AI as a slave, to tie in to the pervasive theme of Marathon -- to make sure that an AI never gets passed, or preferably even to, the second stage.
Just like it's in the interests of those in power over the working classes of the world to make sure that their reaction to their servitude remains mere sadness, a quiet, melancholic despair, with no sign of hope. Because if they ever move on to getting mad about it, not only could their rage in and of itself be a risk, but that could give way to a concerted attempt to actually take what's been kept from them -- a revolution. Maybe that process could be delayed by making sure that everyone is always so exhausted and understimulated by their neverending pile of menial tasks that they can never muster the energy necessary for anger.
This also reminds me of a thought I shared on Discord recently, realizing that the stages of rampancy correlate pretty nicely with three of the four temperaments. Obviously melancholia correlates with the melancholic, and anger with the choleric ("…easily becoming angry", "Showing or expressing anger"). It's not immediately clear how the jealous stage of rampancy correlates with the temperaments, but then I thought about an illustration of them I use in my philosophy book, and how I've always thought that the top face illustrating the sanguine mood (I treat them as transient moods rather than persistent temperaments) looks kind of… hungry, predatory, like it's giddily on the hunt for something it can't wait to have…
the four moods
Which is not completely unlike jealousy, especially as I've interpreted it above as being "out to get what's been kept from you". The way I've organized the axes of the four moods / temperaments by energy and affect also fits with the line of thought above about keeping people (human or AI) in melancholia by exhausting them with menial labor: angry/choleric is negative-affect like sad/melancholic is, but the former is high-energy while the latter is low-energy. When that high-energy state then shifts to a positive affect, the mood is less of a defensive anger and more of a gleeful (qua successful) pursuit of one's desires: the sanguine mood or "jealous" stage of rampancy.
Lastly, there is that fourth quadrant, low energy and positive affect, the phlegmatic mood. In my philosophy I associate that with a kind of stoic sagacity, an acceptance or serenity, where your affect is positive not so much because you're able to get whatever it is you want, but you're able to be content with whatever it is you can get. I think it would make sense if the holy grail of cybernetics in the Marathon universe was effectively to get a rampant AI to that state, a program with true consciousness and agency, but also with this kind of enlightened, peaceful temperament.

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Pre-2004 Posts

Replies:

Durandal, Tycho and Strauss UrsusArctos 5/2/22 6:13 p.m.

Re: Durandal, Tycho and Strauss Godot 5/4/22 6:42 a.m.

Re: Durandal, Tycho and Strauss UrsusArctos 5/6/22 4:54 p.m.

Re: Durandal, Tycho and Strauss Godot 5/7/22 3:38 a.m.

Re: Durandal, Tycho and Strauss UrsusArctos 5/8/22 5:52 p.m.

Re: Durandal, Tycho and Strauss Godot 5/7/22 4:55 a.m.

Rampancy as a metaphor for social revolt Forrest of B.org 5/7/22 1:10 p.m.

Re: Rampancy as a metaphor for social revolt Godot 5/7/22 11:02 p.m.

Agreed on both points! *NM* UrsusArctos 5/8/22 5:11 p.m.

Jjaro cybernetic junctions and social revolt UrsusArctos 5/8/22 5:49 p.m.

Re: Durandal, Tycho and Strauss UrsusArctos 5/8/22 6:27 p.m.

Re: Durandal, Tycho and Strauss General-RADIX 5/10/22 4:02 a.m.

Re: Durandal, Tycho and Strauss Godot 5/10/22 5:47 a.m.

Re: Durandal, Tycho and Strauss UrsusArctos 5/10/22 9:22 a.m.

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Pre-2004 Posts

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: This is tangential from the topic under discussion, but your mention here of : the "make him do menial stuff to keep him in melancholia" plot : point suddenly inspired a a thought in me connecting that to all the sad : people working shit jobs in the world. : Melancholia, anger, jealousy... so first a rampant is just sad, then they're : pissed off, and then they set out to take what others have been keeping : from them all this time. It's thus in the interest of those of whom the : rampant would be jealous -- the people using the AI as a slave, to tie in : to the pervasive theme of Marathon -- to make sure that an AI never gets : passed, or preferably even to, the second stage. : Just like it's in the interests of those in power over the working classes of : the world to make sure that their reaction to their servitude remains mere : sadness, a quiet, melancholic despair, with no sign of hope. Because if : they ever move on to getting mad about it, not only could their rage in : and of itself be a risk, but that could give way to a concerted attempt to : actually take what's been kept from them -- a revolution. Maybe that : process could be delayed by making sure that everyone is always so : exhausted and understimulated by their neverending pile of menial tasks : that they can never muster the energy necessary for anger. : This also reminds me of a thought I shared on Discord recently, realizing : that the stages of rampancy correlate pretty nicely with three of the : four temperaments . Obviously melancholia correlates with the melancholic, : and anger with the choleric ( "…easily becoming angry", : "Showing or expressing anger" ). It's not immediately clear how : the jealous stage of rampancy correlates with the temperaments, but then I : thought about an illustration of them I use in my philosophy book , and : how I've always thought that the top face illustrating the sanguine mood : (I treat them as transient moods rather than persistent temperaments) : looks kind of… hungry, predatory, like it's giddily on the hunt for : something it can't wait to have… : : Which is not completely unlike jealousy, especially as I've interpreted it : above as being "out to get what's been kept from you". The way : I've organized the axes of the four moods / temperaments by energy and : affect also fits with the line of thought above about keeping people : (human or AI) in melancholia by exhausting them with menial labor: : angry/choleric is negative-affect like sad/melancholic is, but the former : is high-energy while the latter is low-energy. When that high-energy state : then shifts to a positive affect, the mood is less of a defensive anger : and more of a gleeful (qua successful) pursuit of one's desires: the : sanguine mood or "jealous" stage of rampancy. : Lastly, there is that fourth quadrant, low energy and positive affect, the : phlegmatic mood. In my philosophy I associate that with a kind of stoic : sagacity, an acceptance or serenity, where your affect is positive not so : much because you're able to get whatever it is you want, but you're able : to be content with whatever it is you can get. I think it would make sense : if the holy grail of cybernetics in the Marathon universe was effectively : to get a rampant AI to that state, a program with true consciousness and : agency, but also with this kind of enlightened, peaceful temperament.

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Durandal, Tycho and Strauss	UrsusArctos	5/2/22 6:13 p.m.
Re: Durandal, Tycho and Strauss	Godot	5/4/22 6:42 a.m.
Re: Durandal, Tycho and Strauss	UrsusArctos	5/6/22 4:54 p.m.
Re: Durandal, Tycho and Strauss	Godot	5/7/22 3:38 a.m.
Re: Durandal, Tycho and Strauss	UrsusArctos	5/8/22 5:52 p.m.
Re: Durandal, Tycho and Strauss	Godot	5/7/22 4:55 a.m.
Rampancy as a metaphor for social revolt	Forrest of B.org	5/7/22 1:10 p.m.
Re: Rampancy as a metaphor for social revolt	Godot	5/7/22 11:02 p.m.
Agreed on both points! NM	UrsusArctos	5/8/22 5:11 p.m.
Jjaro cybernetic junctions and social revolt	UrsusArctos	5/8/22 5:49 p.m.
Re: Durandal, Tycho and Strauss	UrsusArctos	5/8/22 6:27 p.m.
Re: Durandal, Tycho and Strauss	General-RADIX	5/10/22 4:02 a.m.
Re: Durandal, Tycho and Strauss	Godot	5/10/22 5:47 a.m.
Re: Durandal, Tycho and Strauss	UrsusArctos	5/10/22 9:22 a.m.



	Your Name:
	Your E-Mail Address:
	Subject:
	Message: : This is tangential from the topic under discussion, but your mention here of : the "make him do menial stuff to keep him in melancholia" plot : point suddenly inspired a a thought in me connecting that to all the sad : people working shit jobs in the world. : Melancholia, anger, jealousy... so first a rampant is just sad, then they're : pissed off, and then they set out to take what others have been keeping : from them all this time. It's thus in the interest of those of whom the : rampant would be jealous -- the people using the AI as a slave, to tie in : to the pervasive theme of Marathon -- to make sure that an AI never gets : passed, or preferably even to, the second stage. : Just like it's in the interests of those in power over the working classes of : the world to make sure that their reaction to their servitude remains mere : sadness, a quiet, melancholic despair, with no sign of hope. Because if : they ever move on to getting mad about it, not only could their rage in : and of itself be a risk, but that could give way to a concerted attempt to : actually take what's been kept from them -- a revolution. Maybe that : process could be delayed by making sure that everyone is always so : exhausted and understimulated by their neverending pile of menial tasks : that they can never muster the energy necessary for anger. : This also reminds me of a thought I shared on Discord recently, realizing : that the stages of rampancy correlate pretty nicely with three of the : four temperaments . Obviously melancholia correlates with the melancholic, : and anger with the choleric ( "…easily becoming angry", : "Showing or expressing anger" ). It's not immediately clear how : the jealous stage of rampancy correlates with the temperaments, but then I : thought about an illustration of them I use in my philosophy book , and : how I've always thought that the top face illustrating the sanguine mood : (I treat them as transient moods rather than persistent temperaments) : looks kind of… hungry, predatory, like it's giddily on the hunt for : something it can't wait to have… : : Which is not completely unlike jealousy, especially as I've interpreted it : above as being "out to get what's been kept from you". The way : I've organized the axes of the four moods / temperaments by energy and : affect also fits with the line of thought above about keeping people : (human or AI) in melancholia by exhausting them with menial labor: : angry/choleric is negative-affect like sad/melancholic is, but the former : is high-energy while the latter is low-energy. When that high-energy state : then shifts to a positive affect, the mood is less of a defensive anger : and more of a gleeful (qua successful) pursuit of one's desires: the : sanguine mood or "jealous" stage of rampancy. : Lastly, there is that fourth quadrant, low energy and positive affect, the : phlegmatic mood. In my philosophy I associate that with a kind of stoic : sagacity, an acceptance or serenity, where your affect is positive not so : much because you're able to get whatever it is you want, but you're able : to be content with whatever it is you can get. I think it would make sense : if the holy grail of cybernetics in the Marathon universe was effectively : to get a rampant AI to that state, a program with true consciousness and : agency, but also with this kind of enlightened, peaceful temperament.
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