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Re: Why retcons do bother me.
Posted By: Narcogen <narcogen@rampancy.net>Date: 5/25/11 8:01 a.m.

In Response To: Why retcons do bother me. (Gravemind)


[snip]

: Also, there's some key differences between Halo and other sci-fi franchises
: like Star Wars and Star Trek. The big difference is that in the case of
: SW, essentially Lucas only considers the films to be canon.

That seems reasonable, and I've applied the same logic to Halo: the games are canon, and other stuff might be, but isn't necessarily.

Expanded
: Universe material is not canon by default, only becoming canon should he
: choose to integrate it into the films (e.g. Coruscant showing up in the
: prequel trilogy). The films and EU are according to Lucas two different
: continuities. Similarly, Star Trek's expanded universe is not considered
: canonical, with Paramount and the late Gene Roddenberry only recognizing
: the TV series and films as canon. However, in the Haloverse, the various
: EU materials (with some exceptions, such as "Odd One Out") have
: always been considered canon by Bungie from the get-go.

This really needs a citation, as this has never been my understanding.

Even in the presence of such a citation, this is going to be complicated to work out because of Halo's provenance. Bungie developed the IP independently, but before releasing a single game became a wholly-owned property of Microsoft, with Bungie Studios becoming part of MGS.

It's likely that publically, Bungie would have been required to maintain a consistent line with MGS and the Xbox division. Any public disavowment of properly licensed, official Halo materials approved by Microsoft-- with or without Bungie's knowledge or approval, with a lot of involvement from them or a little-- would have had a negative effect on that material's usefulness. I can easily imagine that Bungie employees would have been restrained from making such statements, whether they personally believed with the idea that everything should have equal canon value or not. After years of reading quotes and interviews with those responsible for Halo's initial creation, I honestly find it difficult to believe that any of those individuals had this kind of "anything goes" approach to what is canon and what isn't. The public equivocation about these materials being canon starts even before the release of Halo 2 with the I Love Bees ARG.

Given that now Microsoft owns Halo and Bungie doesn't, I don't think we'll ever get an honest, complete, on-the-record answer to this question. What is and is not canon is no longer up to Bungie, it's up to Microsoft, and it's to Microsoft's benefit to allow as much material as they choose to produce. I don't think they have the luxury of taking the Lucas route and enjoying commercial success and fan support.

There were no
: established "tiers of canon," no "seperate universes,"
: and the novels, etc., are (or at least were) just as valid as the games.
: So, we have "Not canon until Lucas incorporates it into the
: films" and "Only Trek films & TV eps are canon" vs.
: "Canon by default unless Bungie says so." So, Bungie set the bar
: for what is considered canon, and they chose "just about
: everything" as their stance. Therefore, the burden is one them to
: make sure that everything is internally consistent.

I've never actually seen that articulated as a Bungie position, and as I mentioned above, I think it is difficult, if not impossible now, to separate a "Bungie position" from a "Microsoft position".

My own personal opinion is that Bungie created Halo, and what they created is canon, along with whatever else is made that doesn't conflict. If it conflicts, I throw it out of my personal canon. In fact, if it doesn't add constructively, I probably also throw it out.

My Halo canon firewall is set "default to deny".

: But Reach on the other hand is just reprehensible in the utter disregard it
: shows for established canon. It throws out pretty much the entire last act
: of TFoR as well as retconning other material (e.g., Halsey's ignorance of
: the Spartan-III program prior to her trip to Onyx).

Okay. Let's try this as a hypothetical.

Let's say you work at Bungie. Let's say that Halo was your idea. Let's say that selling to Microsoft also seems like a good idea, but that it's understood some creative control will be ceded.

Let's say you hate the Halo novels; but they're not entirely your call, and ever letting a peep out about how you feel about them would be a Very, Very Bad Idea, business-wise. Let's say you're obligated to provide material and support to those authors, regardless of how you feel about what they do with it. Let's say that you perhaps approve, provisionally, about some of the generalities, but not the specifics, and that over time, your ideas about what the significance is of the fall of Reach to the story changes, and that if you had a chance to tell that story again, your own way, you'd like the chance.

I'm not trying to stir up any wasps between Bungie, 343i or any of the novel authors, but for me, to say that Bungie should be obligated to maintain consistency with spinoff materials they did not exercise direct control over is an unreasonable expectation.

It's almost like
: during the development of Reach, Bungie was saying "Sure, we've
: regarded TFoR to be canonical for nearly a decade, but fuck it.

"Halo 'canon' can quite easily be viewed in a similar way as the kind of canon system in place with Star Wars. A certain hierarchy of priority. In other words, different levels of canon where the higher levels will override the lower ones whenever there is a contradiction.
Everything that Bungie has ever approved is canonical. But even then, certain things trump others. In order of canonical influence:

- The games rank first
- Published materials (books, comics, soundtrack liner notes etc.) rank second
- Marketing and PR materials third

--Joe Staten

To me, that's the beginning and end of the argument.

We're
: going to write whatever the hell we want. Who cares about consitency or
: canon?

What is and is not canon lies solely within the purview of the creator. To me, it's not a legal right to be handed over contractually-- those rights are different.

If there were serious retcons of materials at the same level-- the new games seriously retconning the earlier games-- I could see reason to object. A game retconning the novels or advertising materials-- I just can't summon any bile over that, because I got into Halo because of Bungie and their games, not because of the Haloverse, many of the elements of which are clearly derivative of other works. What is exceptional is Bungie's execution of those elements-- which occurs within the context of their games and nowhere else (with the possible exception of Staten's novel). Everything else is secondhand at best.

Besides, it's out of our hands after this." It's obvious to me
: that they simply stopped caring about quaint little notions like canon or
: treating this great universe they created with some modicum of care. Reach
: was almost a slap in the face to many long-time fans of the Haloverse.
: It's worse than George Lucas Doing in the Wizard by changing the Force
: from some mystical energy field to something caused by little
: microorganisms. At least that can potentially be reconciled so as not
: actually being a Doing in the Wizard moment. There's no way to reconcile
: Reach with TFoR.

: The thing is, while this large-scale retcon was deliberate, it was also
: entirely avoidable. They could have easily written Reach without rendering
: nearly half of TFoR Canon Discontinuity .

They didn't want to. Who else has the right to make that call if they don't?

The game could have taken place
: over the course of half a day instead of several weeks, making it closer
: to the novel's two-hour curb stomp battle. It could have involved a squad
: of Spartan-IIs instead Spartan-IIIs. It could have had The Pillar of
: Autumn in space instead of drydocked on the surface. Bungie could have
: made Reach with negligible continuity conflicts between it and TFoR, but
: they instead chose to create the most egregious retcon in the series'
: history.

All of the above are miniscule details that don't rise to the level of "egregious". How long the fall took is not relevant to the primary themes of Halo. I more and more get the feeling that those who most strongly object to Reach's retcon of the novels are very close to the camps that objected to Halo 2 for not taking place more on Earth, and who are more interested in the Human-Covenant war than the Forerunner-Flood struggle (which is actually the central story of the Haloverse) and who really, secretly want Call of Duty in Space and not Halo at all.

Did Bungie simply give Peter O'Brien free reign to write what he
: wanted, or did they have this scenario planned out before the first words
: were written down? In any case, for them to go "Yeah, this is
: canon," for nine years then suddenly turn around and go
: "Aaaaand, now it's not," with regard to a major part of the
: series canon just shows to me that they just stopped caring.

I think the flow of data from the Halo Bible is one-way: out. I don't think that Bungie saying that, on a secondary level, the novels or other materials can safely be considered "canonical" as long as they don't conflict with the games means that that information then gets transcribed into the Halo Bible and becomes canonical on that level. When O'Brien worked out the scenario, I feel safe in believing that the canon he was told to maintain consistency with was the Bible-- the materials that Bungie developed themselves, that they used as a guide when making the games, and what they gave out to third parties to help them.

Giving Nylund the Halo Bible to help him write the novel, and then approving the novel, does not put everything he put into the novel back into the Bible.

: Now, I don't mind the occasional minor retcons so long as they actually
: improve on the story and the franchise. For example, I never liked how
: TFoR implies that Elites were never encountered on the ground before the
: Battle of Reach. This was retconned by later works, having Elite infantry
: present as early as the Harvest campaign. But Reach was an egregious,
: unnecessary, and inexcusable violation of what was once established canon,
: not to mention it was poorly-written. As far as I'm concerned Reach is an
: apocryphal story.

Given that the "author" of Halo-- to the extent that any such work or collection of works can have one-- is Bungie LLC, formerly Bungie Studios, formerly Bungie Software Corporation-- and not Microsoft, 343 Industries, or Eric Nylund-- this seems a strange application of the word "apocryphal" which in such a context usually means "of questionable authenticity".

Reach is most assuredly and without question authentic. Any thing not created by them is authentic at their approval; I don't see any particular reason why they should be obligated to give it, or, having given it, may be restricted from withdrawing it.

Death by intelligence



Message Index




Replies:

Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/11/11 6:11 p.m.
     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreFrankie 5/11/11 6:16 p.m.
           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/11/11 6:20 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymorePhoenix_9286 5/11/11 6:54 p.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreQuirel 5/11/11 11:21 p.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymorePhoenix_9286 5/12/11 12:19 a.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreLurono 5/12/11 11:21 a.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreGeneral Vagueness 5/12/11 1:09 p.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreQuirel 5/12/11 1:20 p.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreGeneral Vagueness 5/12/11 3:24 p.m.
                                               i somewhat agreenomis78 5/16/11 4:21 p.m.
                                                     oh and marty on music *NM*nomis78 5/16/11 4:59 p.m.
           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymorepadraig08 5/11/11 6:22 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreAzo 'Galvat 5/11/11 9:54 p.m.
     tl;dr: "I grew up, and I like Ren & Stimpy" *NM*Pkmnrulz240 5/11/11 6:24 p.m.
     Are those really retcons?General Battuta 5/11/11 6:25 p.m.
           Re: Are those really retcons?Cody Miller 5/11/11 6:31 p.m.
                 Re: Are those really retcons?General Battuta 5/11/11 6:44 p.m.
                       Re: No, they're not.Ranger15S 5/11/11 7:15 p.m.
                       Re: Are those really retcons?General Vagueness 5/11/11 9:15 p.m.
                             Re: Are those really retcons?General Battuta 5/11/11 10:12 p.m.
                 Nope, it isn't.Narcogen 5/12/11 2:13 a.m.
     Retcons are Art *NM*NartFOpc 5/11/11 6:26 p.m.
     Ren and Stimpy why you should not care about canon *NM*ZaneZavin 5/11/11 6:31 p.m.
     Thank God *NM*RC Master 5/11/11 6:47 p.m.
     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/11/11 6:58 p.m.
           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreGeneral Vagueness 5/11/11 9:25 p.m.
     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreDarkS7G 5/11/11 7:36 p.m.
           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/11/11 9:32 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymorepadraig08 5/11/11 10:08 p.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/12/11 6:07 a.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreDEEP NNN 5/12/11 6:30 a.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/12/11 11:01 a.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreDEEP NNN 5/12/11 11:57 a.m.
                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/12/11 2:54 p.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreRevenant1988 5/12/11 7:41 a.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreDMFanella 5/12/11 8:46 a.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreRevenant1988 5/12/11 9:08 a.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymorepadraig08 5/12/11 1:41 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreDMFanella 5/12/11 8:37 a.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreRevenant1988 5/12/11 9:15 a.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreDMFanella 5/12/11 9:37 a.m.
                                   Fanella playing HW *IMG*Revenant1988 5/12/11 10:54 a.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreDarkS7G 5/12/11 2:29 p.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/12/11 3:02 p.m.
     The Roto-Rooter man finally gets a break. *NM*Captain Spark 5/11/11 7:40 p.m.
     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreFlynn J Taggart 5/11/11 7:45 p.m.
     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreGeneral Vagueness 5/11/11 9:09 p.m.
     I disagree on many pointsuberfoop 5/11/11 10:36 p.m.
           To clarify.uberfoop 5/11/11 11:10 p.m.
           Re: I disagree on many pointsscarab 5/12/11 3:05 a.m.
     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreSimpsons Rule 5/11/11 10:38 p.m.
           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/11/11 11:13 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/12/11 2:13 a.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/12/11 12:05 p.m.
                             Cautious skepticism.Narcogen 5/13/11 1:38 a.m.
                                   Re: Cautious skepticism.Cody Miller 5/13/11 11:14 a.m.
                                         Re: Cautious skepticism.Quirel 5/13/11 7:04 p.m.
                                               Re: Cautious skepticism.scarab 5/14/11 1:59 a.m.
                                                     Re: Cautious skepticism.resplendentvole 5/14/11 10:08 a.m.
                                                     Re: Cautious skepticism.Quirel 5/14/11 3:24 p.m.
                                         Re: Cautious skepticism.Narcogen 5/15/11 10:52 p.m.
                                   Re: Cautious skepticism.Quirel 5/27/11 2:26 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreSimpsons Rule 5/15/11 11:58 p.m.
     And another sees the lightPsychoRaven 5/11/11 10:49 p.m.
           Although I still disagreePsychoRaven 5/11/11 10:52 p.m.
     I'll just be bothered for you then... *NM*The Loot 5/11/11 11:23 p.m.
     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreQuirel 5/11/11 11:26 p.m.
     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/12/11 2:08 a.m.
           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/12/11 11:14 a.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreArteenEsben 5/12/11 4:50 p.m.
                       I'm picking upkidtsunami 5/12/11 5:19 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreGeneral Vagueness 5/13/11 1:36 a.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/13/11 2:16 a.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/13/11 11:26 a.m.
                             Wait a minute.uberfoop 5/13/11 4:04 p.m.
                                   Re: Wait a minute.Cody Miller 5/13/11 4:31 p.m.
                                         Re: Wait a minute.uberfoop 5/13/11 6:34 p.m.
                                               Wait, did I really just...?uberfoop 5/13/11 6:48 p.m.
                                               Re: Wait a minute.Cody Miller 5/13/11 6:59 p.m.
                                                     Re: Wait a minute.Quirel 5/13/11 7:51 p.m.
                                                     Re: Wait a minute.Hawaiian Pig 5/14/11 6:13 p.m.
                                               Not about Limbo.Narcogen 5/15/11 11:06 p.m.
                                         Re: Wait a minute.General Vagueness 5/14/11 2:27 p.m.
                                         Re: Wait a minute.Narcogen 5/15/11 10:57 p.m.
                                               Re: Wait a minute.Cody Miller 5/15/11 11:13 p.m.
                                                     Re: Wait a minute.Hoovaloov 5/16/11 5:47 a.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/15/11 10:55 p.m.
     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreArchilen 5/12/11 2:56 a.m.
           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/12/11 6:08 a.m.
     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreHawaiian Pig 5/12/11 9:54 a.m.
     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreEvil Otto 5/12/11 12:51 p.m.
           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreEvil Otto 5/12/11 12:57 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreAvateur 5/12/11 12:59 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreFyreWulff 5/12/11 1:08 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreHawaiian Pig 5/12/11 3:39 p.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/12/11 4:27 p.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/12/11 5:45 p.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreQuirel 5/12/11 6:00 p.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/12/11 6:31 p.m.
                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreQuirel 5/12/11 7:06 p.m.
                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/12/11 8:28 p.m.
                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/12/11 9:27 p.m.
                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreQuirel 5/12/11 10:11 p.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreEvil Otto 5/12/11 4:31 p.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreQuirel 5/12/11 5:42 p.m.
                                   My thoughts exactly ^ *NM*Hawaiian Pig 5/13/11 1:08 a.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/13/11 11:20 a.m.
                                         Are you playing Devil's advocate? *NM*scarab 5/13/11 12:49 p.m.
                                               Re: Are you playing Devil's advocate?Hawaiian Pig 5/14/11 6:20 p.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreuberfoop 5/13/11 4:36 p.m.
                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/13/11 4:50 p.m.
                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreuberfoop 5/13/11 5:35 p.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreSimpsons Rule 5/16/11 12:12 a.m.
                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/16/11 1:13 a.m.
                                                     Thoughts and conspiracies...Leviathan 5/16/11 2:22 a.m.
                                                           Re: Thoughts and conspiracies...Narcogen 5/16/11 3:52 a.m.
                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreuberfoop 5/16/11 2:44 a.m.
                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/16/11 4:05 a.m.
                                                                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreuberfoop 5/16/11 7:36 p.m.
                                                                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/17/11 12:13 a.m.
                                                                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreuberfoop 5/17/11 3:24 a.m.
                                                                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/17/11 5:39 a.m.
                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/16/11 8:16 a.m.
                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreLeviathan 5/16/11 10:13 a.m.
                                                                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/16/11 11:43 a.m.
                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/17/11 12:15 a.m.
                                                                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/17/11 10:18 a.m.
                                                                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreLouis Wu 5/17/11 10:56 a.m.
                                                                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreLeviathan 5/17/11 11:46 a.m.
                                                                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymorescarab 5/17/11 3:13 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreLeviathan 5/17/11 4:35 p.m.
                                                                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/17/11 1:22 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreBry 5/17/11 1:40 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/17/11 1:50 p.m.
                                                                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreBry 5/17/11 1:57 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/18/11 12:12 a.m.
                                                                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/18/11 8:54 a.m.
                                                                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreLouis Wu 5/18/11 9:20 a.m.
                                                                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/18/11 9:57 a.m.
                                                                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/18/11 11:29 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/19/11 6:56 a.m.
                                                                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/20/11 1:23 a.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/20/11 7:03 a.m.
                                                                                                                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/20/11 11:34 p.m.
                                                                                                                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/21/11 8:47 a.m.
                                                                                                                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/22/11 11:33 p.m.
                                                                                                                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/23/11 8:10 a.m.
                                                                                                                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreBry 5/23/11 9:06 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/23/11 10:01 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreBry 5/23/11 10:53 a.m.
                                                                                                                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreGeneral Vagueness 5/23/11 10:31 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreQuirel 5/23/11 11:48 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreArchilen 5/24/11 1:44 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/24/11 6:18 a.m.
                                                                                                                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/24/11 1:01 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreQuirel 5/24/11 2:11 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreArchilen 5/24/11 3:24 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/24/11 4:07 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/24/11 8:03 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/24/11 3:36 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreBry 5/24/11 5:45 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/24/11 6:34 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             You can't please everyone all of the time *NM*Bry 5/24/11 6:37 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenQuirel 5/27/11 3:23 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With Narcogenuberfoop 5/27/11 4:54 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenCody Miller 5/27/11 5:00 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenBeckx 5/27/11 6:10 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   The guy who mage Greedo shoot first *NM*scarab 5/28/11 3:56 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/27/11 5:25 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenQuirel 5/27/11 7:03 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/27/11 7:46 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenQuirel 5/27/11 8:39 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                         My take.BlueNinja 5/28/11 6:58 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenGeneral Vagueness 5/27/11 6:30 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/27/11 6:51 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       +1 *NM*Document 5/28/11 4:30 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenDocument 5/28/11 5:42 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Great post. Love it.Gravemind 5/28/11 5:53 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Great post. Love it.Quirel 5/29/11 2:15 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenNarcogen 5/30/11 12:23 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/30/11 6:50 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenGeneral Vagueness 5/30/11 10:46 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With Narcogenpete_the_duck 5/30/11 11:01 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenGravemind 5/30/11 8:04 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/30/11 8:15 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                               o_OArithmomaniac 5/30/11 9:07 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: o_OStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/30/11 11:02 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenNarcogen 5/31/11 12:11 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/31/11 6:45 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenNarcogen 6/1/11 1:21 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenStephen L. (SoundEffect) 6/1/11 6:55 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                           Commentary Transcripts.Narcogen 6/2/11 3:00 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Commentary Transcripts.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 6/2/11 7:07 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Commentary Transcripts.Gravemind 6/2/11 1:17 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Commentary Transcripts.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 6/2/11 1:20 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Commentary Transcripts.Dagoonite 6/2/11 5:04 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Commentary Transcripts.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 6/2/11 7:06 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Commentary Transcripts.Narcogen 6/3/11 12:29 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Commentary Transcripts.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 6/3/11 8:14 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Commentary Transcripts.Louis Wu 6/3/11 8:27 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Chips.Hedgemony 6/3/11 8:40 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       338 repliesCody Miller 6/3/11 7:26 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: 338 repliesQuirel 6/3/11 7:47 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: 338 repliesLouis Wu 6/3/11 8:01 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Commentary Transcripts.Narcogen 6/5/11 11:04 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Commentary Transcripts.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 6/6/11 6:32 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Commentary Transcripts.General Vagueness 6/3/11 8:49 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Commentary Transcripts.Narcogen 6/5/11 11:07 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Commentary Transcripts.Narcogen 6/3/11 12:25 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Commentary Transcripts.resplendentvole 6/2/11 2:14 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Commentary Transcripts.scarab 6/2/11 4:49 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Commentary Transcripts.Narcogen 6/3/11 12:30 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Commentary Transcripts.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 6/2/11 7:10 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Commentary Transcripts.Narcogen 6/3/11 12:39 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Commentary Transcripts.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 6/3/11 8:17 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Commentary Transcripts.Narcogen 6/3/11 12:19 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenGeneral Vagueness 5/30/11 10:51 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Johnson's survivalDocument 5/30/11 4:19 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenGeneral Vagueness 5/30/11 10:56 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With Narcogenpete_the_duck 5/30/11 11:09 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/30/11 11:20 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenNarcogen 5/31/11 12:22 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/31/11 6:24 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenNarcogen 6/1/11 1:11 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenStephen L. (SoundEffect) 6/1/11 6:33 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenNarcogen 6/2/11 1:29 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenGeneral Vagueness 5/30/11 11:34 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenGeneral Vagueness 5/30/11 11:44 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenNarcogen 5/31/11 12:29 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenLeisandir 5/31/11 12:05 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenLouis Wu 5/31/11 12:09 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenCody Miller 5/31/11 12:49 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenNarcogen 6/1/11 1:13 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenLouis Wu 6/1/11 7:07 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenNarcogen 6/2/11 1:28 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenNarcogen 5/31/11 12:17 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Johnson's character statusDocument 5/30/11 4:09 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Reprise: Testing size limits on individual posts.Quirel 6/5/11 2:53 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Reprise: Testing size limits on individual posStephen L. (SoundEffect) 6/5/11 8:24 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Quirel- okay here's the response.Narcogen 6/13/11 5:01 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Quirel- okay here's the response.scarab 6/13/11 7:09 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/24/11 6:55 a.m.
                                                                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreGeneral Vagueness 5/17/11 12:26 p.m.
                                                                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/17/11 1:33 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreGeneral Vagueness 5/17/11 1:37 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/17/11 1:54 p.m.
                                                                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreGeneral Vagueness 5/17/11 2:24 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/17/11 5:34 p.m.
                                                                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreagdtinman 5/17/11 6:49 p.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreBry 5/17/11 8:34 p.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/17/11 9:48 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreBry 5/17/11 1:44 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/17/11 1:53 p.m.
                                                                                   Wrong example.Louis Wu 5/17/11 2:22 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Wrong example.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/17/11 5:39 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Wrong example.Narcogen 5/18/11 12:33 a.m.
                                                                                               Re: Wrong example.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/18/11 8:33 a.m.
                                                                                                     Re: Wrong example.Narcogen 5/18/11 11:34 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/18/11 12:27 a.m.
                                                                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/17/11 11:37 p.m.
                                                                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/18/11 6:44 a.m.
                                                                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/18/11 7:27 a.m.
                                                                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/18/11 9:52 a.m.
                                                                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/18/11 11:40 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/19/11 6:24 a.m.
                                                                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/19/11 6:52 a.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/19/11 8:17 a.m.
                                                                                                                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/20/11 1:26 a.m.
                                                                                                                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/20/11 7:22 a.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/13/11 2:25 a.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/13/11 11:17 a.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreHawaiian Pig 5/14/11 6:10 p.m.
                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/15/11 2:55 a.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/15/11 10:59 p.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreBry 5/12/11 4:33 p.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreAvateur 5/12/11 4:48 p.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreBeckx 5/12/11 5:01 p.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreAvateur 5/12/11 5:10 p.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymorescarab 5/12/11 6:09 p.m.
                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreBeckx 5/13/11 7:35 a.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreBry 5/12/11 5:10 p.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreAvateur 5/12/11 5:25 p.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreQuirel 5/12/11 5:31 p.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/12/11 5:50 p.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreGeneral Vagueness 5/12/11 7:56 p.m.
                       How to Still Care About Halo.Narcogen 5/15/11 11:01 p.m.
                             Re: How to Still Care About Halo.Hoovaloov 5/16/11 7:17 a.m.
                                   Re: How to Still Care About Halo.Narcogen 5/17/11 12:17 a.m.
                             Well said.Kermit 5/16/11 9:55 a.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/13/11 2:22 a.m.
           I like this post *NM*Avateur 5/12/11 12:58 p.m.
           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreDuncan 5/12/11 4:38 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymorescarab 5/12/11 6:18 p.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreHoovaloov 5/16/11 7:20 a.m.
           I liked it better when humans were forerunnersFlynn J Taggart 5/12/11 6:36 p.m.
           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymore *SP*Narcogen 5/13/11 2:21 a.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymore *SP*mc_leprechaun 5/13/11 12:07 p.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymore *SP*scarab 5/13/11 12:46 p.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymore *SP*mc_leprechaun 5/13/11 4:03 p.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymore *SP*Narcogen 5/15/11 10:53 p.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymore *SP*Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/16/11 6:26 a.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymore *SP*Dagoonite 5/16/11 9:40 a.m.
     Why Retcons annoy me to no end...The BS Police 5/16/11 5:41 a.m.
           Re: Why Retcons annoy me to no end...RC Master 5/16/11 10:54 a.m.
                 Re: Why Retcons annoy me to no end...General Vagueness 5/16/11 11:56 a.m.
                       Re: Why Retcons annoy me to no end...The BS Police 5/16/11 3:46 p.m.
                             Re: Why Retcons annoy me to no end...General Vagueness 5/16/11 6:17 p.m.
     .....The Hell's A Retcon? (/dumb) *NM*Morpheus 5/16/11 8:24 a.m.
           Re: .....The Hell's A Retcon? (/dumb)Beckx 5/16/11 9:01 a.m.
           Retroactive Continuity...GrimBrother One 5/16/11 9:02 a.m.
                 Re: Retroactive Continuity...Morpheus 5/16/11 1:59 p.m.
                       Re: Retroactive Continuity...Quirel 5/16/11 6:42 p.m.
                             Re: Retroactive Continuity...Unique Name 5/16/11 7:27 p.m.
                                   Re: Retroactive Continuity...Quirel 5/16/11 7:54 p.m.
                                         You make no sense!ZackDark 5/16/11 9:00 p.m.
                                               Re: You make no sense!Quirel 5/16/11 10:20 p.m.
                                                     Re: You make no sense!Beckx 5/17/11 8:21 a.m.
                                                           Re: You make no sense!ZackDark 5/17/11 10:30 a.m.
     Why retcons do bother me.Gravemind 5/24/11 4:45 p.m.
           Re: Why retcons do bother me.General Vagueness 5/24/11 6:25 p.m.
           Amen, brother! *NM*The Loot 5/24/11 6:50 p.m.
           I've said it before, I'll say it again...Lurono 5/24/11 7:41 p.m.
                 Re: I've said it before, I'll say it again...The Loot 5/24/11 8:57 p.m.
                       Re: I've said it before, I'll say it again...General Battuta 5/24/11 8:58 p.m.
                 Re: I've said it before, I'll say it again...General Battuta 5/24/11 8:57 p.m.
                       Re: I've said it before, I'll say it again...Lurono 5/24/11 9:22 p.m.
                       Re: I've said it before, I'll say it again...The Loot 5/24/11 9:48 p.m.
           Re: Why retcons do bother me.Narcogen 5/25/11 8:01 a.m.
                 Re: Why retcons do bother me.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/25/11 8:30 a.m.
                       Re: Why retcons do bother me.Narcogen 5/26/11 12:10 a.m.
                             Re: Why retcons do bother me.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/26/11 7:12 a.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons do bother me.Narcogen 5/26/11 7:46 a.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons do bother me.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/26/11 1:07 p.m.
                                               Re: Why retcons do bother me.Narcogen 5/26/11 11:19 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons do bother me.Archilen 5/25/11 11:43 a.m.
                       Re: Why retcons do bother me.Narcogen 5/26/11 12:14 a.m.
                             Re: Why retcons do bother me.Cody Miller 5/26/11 12:17 a.m.
                       Re: Why retcons do bother me.Narcogen 5/26/11 12:21 a.m.



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