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Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymore
Posted By: Narcogen <narcogen@rampancy.net>Date: 5/24/11 4:07 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymore (Archilen)


: I agree. There's some really interesting responses and opinions in this
: thread, but I'm still firmly rooted in the canon faithful camp.

That's largely a question of perspective. I also hold canon to be sacrosanct-- but for me, the canon is the games. Everything else is Extended Universe for me, and of much lesser value. When that stuff conflicts with the games, I disregard it. If it doesn't somehow enhance the games, I tend to ignore it.

It's interesting to note that so far, with the exception of Cryptum, a lot of the extended materials deal with the portion of the Haloverse I find least interesting-- the UNSC-Covenant war. The discovery of Halo and the Flood is essentially the story of how that war gave way to another conflict as the center of the story, so for me, extending that part of the universe isn't as interesting as other things one might do.

I find what Cryptum is doing interesting, but I think that's already been discussed.

So I consider myself just as "canon faithful" as others who want to see details paid attention to-- my canon is just more tightly centered around the information about the Haloverse contained within the games, and not material wholly separate.

Despite
: all that has been said, I guess it comes down to what one appreciates in
: fiction. Some just want good stories and don't really care about
: consistency. For others, the lack of consistency becomes a distraction and
: an impediment to enjoying the story. For example, while I liked it as a
: game, it was difficult to relate to a lot of things that happened in Halo:
: Reach because I was constantly distracted by the conflicts with existing
: canon.

I found it difficult to relate with the events of Reach because for the most part, they don't really matter, and affect characters we're given much less time to grow to know and like. I think ODST did a better job of this. Having read TFOR only twice I have to admit I wasn't more than vaguely aware of what the conflicts were-- but for me, these aren't conflicts with existing canon because the canonical value of a novel, like TFOR, is by its very nature provisional: it exists at the whim of the source material, created by Bungie in the form of a game.

For me, canonical value is more about who than when. Reach is canon to me because Bungie made it: Halo is their creation, even if it is no longer their property (and they are no longer MS property). What additions were made by third parties, regardless of how much access or approval they were given, come a distant second.

: It would be great if I could just consciously ignore fictional consistency,
: but I've found that pretty hard to do. At least that diminishes the impact
: of the story when different entries that are supposed to exist in the same
: universe don't match up. The universe is fictional, yes, but that fiction
: has rules and established history that should be followed and not simply
: discarded when the writer feels like taking the easy way. Working within
: the confines of existing fiction should be a challenge for a writer, as
: opposed to an insurmountable obstacle. For example, if I were a writer,
: specifically the lead writer for Halo: Reach, I would've enjoyed the
: challenge of working within established fiction, instead of simply
: throwing it all away just because I can.

If TFOR and Reach were two creations by the same group, I could see that inconsistency as being lazy. That's not the case. Those who authored, approved and published TFOR had to be aware of the risk they were running that they could be retconned. I don't believe that Halo's initial creators had a moral obligation to maintain consistency with all the spinoff material.

: Of course, it's a matter of how you look at it. Some people simply find
: enjoyment in consistency as much as others do in well-crafted stories.
: It's hard to express what I mean, but it's like I'm seeing an underlying
: pattern of straight threads that are snapped, broken and twisted by
: inconsistencies. Okay, I don't know if that analogy made any sense. But
: it's really difficult to say it any other way.

I like consistency as well, but when it collides against other priorities it gets bumped down the list a bit. Bungie made some creative decisions with Reach that I think are defensible, even if I think the result isn't the best story in the games.

: As for the claim that fictional consistency is extremely difficult or
: downright impossible to manage, I disagree. If fans can figure out things
: those who manage the universe as a full-time job cannot, then it seems
: more like a question of competence.

I sort of thought it would come around to that. Hobbyists devote their leisure time to this for free, and are able to crowdsource efforts that would take a smaller group of paid individuals more calendar time to complete. I asked Stephen Loftus a related question elsewhere in the thread; I'll be curious to see his answer.

Out of curiosity, was there anyone in particular at Bungie or 343i you'd care to label as incompetent? Or is it more of a general thing?

There are a couple of possible answers; one is that regardless of how difficult or easy, the majority of players and readers don't care that much about all these details, or if they do, it doesn't inform their purchase decisions. So as long as successful entertainment products can be made without changing the approach to this, there won't be any changes.

The other is that they do care, but that they only care to the degree that it's cost-effective. Continuity hurts, but doesn't help-- nobody starts a whisper campaign to support a spinoff novel because of its amazing continuity. A good novel with bad continuity is a good novel. A bad novel with good continuity is a bad novel. Some portion of the audience might appreciate the degree to which the author embraced and extended the universe without breaking it, but may not care too much if the characters are bland and the story uninteresting.

Of course there are those who say that Reach has flaws in both areas. I just focus on the flaws it has on its own, because I sweep the novels away and measure Reach's canon up against the games, letting details from the books back in where they don't conflict.

Maybe they should just have one or two
: people memorize absolutely everything about the fiction and assign them to
: cross-check every new entry to the franchise so that nothing gets through
: until it's consistent in every regard. Have them read all the books, make
: notes about absolutely everything. I can think of worse jobs than that.

This sounds a lot like the story about the map of the world that was commissioned, that when made, occupied precisely the space it mapped, it was so accurate.

: Also, I don't think the novels or ancillary material should be regarded as
: less canon than the games. Yes, I know the games take precedence in the
: official hierarchy, but such hierarchy shouldn't even exist in my opinion.

That's pretty central to my view of the franchise, or indeed any franchise. Its creators are just that: its creators. Meaning is a collaboration between authors and audience. Licensed materials are, to me-- when they are additional and not the main event-- a sort of uneasy middle ground, like a quasi-official fan fiction. In fact, one of the major reasons for my having that attitude is the knowledge of how easy, and in fact inevitable, it is that such material eventually gets rescinded, superseded, or discarded. (See: Splinter of the Mind's Eye.)

: There shouldn't be any conflict between them to begin with; they're all
: entries that document events in the same universe.

Except that they're not. The Haloverse was made by Bungie. You can't slip all of the Haloverse into a binder, call it "The Halo Bible", give that document to somebody else, and get back a portion of the Haloverse. You're getting somebody else's idea of what the Haloverse is. Even with collaboration and approvals, there's a lot less consistency of vision once you start throwing material over the wall this way.

What of the anime series, for instance, that used a series of drastically different visual styles? Aren't those differences applicable? How can things in the same, singular Halo universe look so different from one another? What about tone? The tone of the novels by Dietz, Nylund, Bear and Staten are all drastically different. To what extent are these really the same universe, and not different universes with shared traits? Or the same universe, viewed through different lenses? There's a long of she said, he said going on here-- whose take on the universe is the "right" one if not the original creators'?

However, when a game
: conflicts with facts established in no less than three novels, directly or
: indirectly, it becomes harder to accept the game as factual in-universe
: information, regardless of what the official stance may be.

For me that's just the opposite. Those that embrace and extend should do that-- and not break. (Imagine spinoff novels labeled "Halo Compatible!") It's not the place, in my mind, for third party authors to stand in the way of the stories Bungie wants to tell in the universe they created. Doing so was a calculated risk. Asking Bungie to make a fifth Halo game, and letting them retcon TFOR, was an admission of that, I think. MS owned Halo, and Bungie was independent. Either could have refused, but the call was made.

Let me underline it: I'm a Bungie fan. Not a Halo fan. I'm a Halo fan insofar as I'm a Bungie fan. Where the two roads diverge, I'm looking to see where the latter wants to lead me, and keeping a wary eye out for what the former is up to.

(Note: It's worth pointing out that much of the above is applying auteur theory to the Haloverse, which is an approach I have been mostly subverting for the past week. What can I say, I'm philosophically opportunistic. What I'd say in response is that there's a difference between comparing and contrasting author theory with reader-response theory when asking how meaning is formed, and looking at licensed material, where third party contributors have a role that is not exactly author, and not exactly audience.)

Death by intelligence



Message Index




Replies:

Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/11/11 6:11 p.m.
     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreFrankie 5/11/11 6:16 p.m.
           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/11/11 6:20 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymorePhoenix_9286 5/11/11 6:54 p.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreQuirel 5/11/11 11:21 p.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymorePhoenix_9286 5/12/11 12:19 a.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreLurono 5/12/11 11:21 a.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreGeneral Vagueness 5/12/11 1:09 p.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreQuirel 5/12/11 1:20 p.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreGeneral Vagueness 5/12/11 3:24 p.m.
                                               i somewhat agreenomis78 5/16/11 4:21 p.m.
                                                     oh and marty on music *NM*nomis78 5/16/11 4:59 p.m.
           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymorepadraig08 5/11/11 6:22 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreAzo 'Galvat 5/11/11 9:54 p.m.
     tl;dr: "I grew up, and I like Ren & Stimpy" *NM*Pkmnrulz240 5/11/11 6:24 p.m.
     Are those really retcons?General Battuta 5/11/11 6:25 p.m.
           Re: Are those really retcons?Cody Miller 5/11/11 6:31 p.m.
                 Re: Are those really retcons?General Battuta 5/11/11 6:44 p.m.
                       Re: No, they're not.Ranger15S 5/11/11 7:15 p.m.
                       Re: Are those really retcons?General Vagueness 5/11/11 9:15 p.m.
                             Re: Are those really retcons?General Battuta 5/11/11 10:12 p.m.
                 Nope, it isn't.Narcogen 5/12/11 2:13 a.m.
     Retcons are Art *NM*NartFOpc 5/11/11 6:26 p.m.
     Ren and Stimpy why you should not care about canon *NM*ZaneZavin 5/11/11 6:31 p.m.
     Thank God *NM*RC Master 5/11/11 6:47 p.m.
     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/11/11 6:58 p.m.
           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreGeneral Vagueness 5/11/11 9:25 p.m.
     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreDarkS7G 5/11/11 7:36 p.m.
           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/11/11 9:32 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymorepadraig08 5/11/11 10:08 p.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/12/11 6:07 a.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreDEEP NNN 5/12/11 6:30 a.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/12/11 11:01 a.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreDEEP NNN 5/12/11 11:57 a.m.
                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/12/11 2:54 p.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreRevenant1988 5/12/11 7:41 a.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreDMFanella 5/12/11 8:46 a.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreRevenant1988 5/12/11 9:08 a.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymorepadraig08 5/12/11 1:41 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreDMFanella 5/12/11 8:37 a.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreRevenant1988 5/12/11 9:15 a.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreDMFanella 5/12/11 9:37 a.m.
                                   Fanella playing HW *IMG*Revenant1988 5/12/11 10:54 a.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreDarkS7G 5/12/11 2:29 p.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/12/11 3:02 p.m.
     The Roto-Rooter man finally gets a break. *NM*Captain Spark 5/11/11 7:40 p.m.
     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreFlynn J Taggart 5/11/11 7:45 p.m.
     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreGeneral Vagueness 5/11/11 9:09 p.m.
     I disagree on many pointsuberfoop 5/11/11 10:36 p.m.
           To clarify.uberfoop 5/11/11 11:10 p.m.
           Re: I disagree on many pointsscarab 5/12/11 3:05 a.m.
     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreSimpsons Rule 5/11/11 10:38 p.m.
           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/11/11 11:13 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/12/11 2:13 a.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/12/11 12:05 p.m.
                             Cautious skepticism.Narcogen 5/13/11 1:38 a.m.
                                   Re: Cautious skepticism.Cody Miller 5/13/11 11:14 a.m.
                                         Re: Cautious skepticism.Quirel 5/13/11 7:04 p.m.
                                               Re: Cautious skepticism.scarab 5/14/11 1:59 a.m.
                                                     Re: Cautious skepticism.resplendentvole 5/14/11 10:08 a.m.
                                                     Re: Cautious skepticism.Quirel 5/14/11 3:24 p.m.
                                         Re: Cautious skepticism.Narcogen 5/15/11 10:52 p.m.
                                   Re: Cautious skepticism.Quirel 5/27/11 2:26 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreSimpsons Rule 5/15/11 11:58 p.m.
     And another sees the lightPsychoRaven 5/11/11 10:49 p.m.
           Although I still disagreePsychoRaven 5/11/11 10:52 p.m.
     I'll just be bothered for you then... *NM*The Loot 5/11/11 11:23 p.m.
     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreQuirel 5/11/11 11:26 p.m.
     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/12/11 2:08 a.m.
           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/12/11 11:14 a.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreArteenEsben 5/12/11 4:50 p.m.
                       I'm picking upkidtsunami 5/12/11 5:19 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreGeneral Vagueness 5/13/11 1:36 a.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/13/11 2:16 a.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/13/11 11:26 a.m.
                             Wait a minute.uberfoop 5/13/11 4:04 p.m.
                                   Re: Wait a minute.Cody Miller 5/13/11 4:31 p.m.
                                         Re: Wait a minute.uberfoop 5/13/11 6:34 p.m.
                                               Wait, did I really just...?uberfoop 5/13/11 6:48 p.m.
                                               Re: Wait a minute.Cody Miller 5/13/11 6:59 p.m.
                                                     Re: Wait a minute.Quirel 5/13/11 7:51 p.m.
                                                     Re: Wait a minute.Hawaiian Pig 5/14/11 6:13 p.m.
                                               Not about Limbo.Narcogen 5/15/11 11:06 p.m.
                                         Re: Wait a minute.General Vagueness 5/14/11 2:27 p.m.
                                         Re: Wait a minute.Narcogen 5/15/11 10:57 p.m.
                                               Re: Wait a minute.Cody Miller 5/15/11 11:13 p.m.
                                                     Re: Wait a minute.Hoovaloov 5/16/11 5:47 a.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/15/11 10:55 p.m.
     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreArchilen 5/12/11 2:56 a.m.
           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/12/11 6:08 a.m.
     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreHawaiian Pig 5/12/11 9:54 a.m.
     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreEvil Otto 5/12/11 12:51 p.m.
           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreEvil Otto 5/12/11 12:57 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreAvateur 5/12/11 12:59 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreFyreWulff 5/12/11 1:08 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreHawaiian Pig 5/12/11 3:39 p.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/12/11 4:27 p.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/12/11 5:45 p.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreQuirel 5/12/11 6:00 p.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/12/11 6:31 p.m.
                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreQuirel 5/12/11 7:06 p.m.
                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/12/11 8:28 p.m.
                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/12/11 9:27 p.m.
                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreQuirel 5/12/11 10:11 p.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreEvil Otto 5/12/11 4:31 p.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreQuirel 5/12/11 5:42 p.m.
                                   My thoughts exactly ^ *NM*Hawaiian Pig 5/13/11 1:08 a.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/13/11 11:20 a.m.
                                         Are you playing Devil's advocate? *NM*scarab 5/13/11 12:49 p.m.
                                               Re: Are you playing Devil's advocate?Hawaiian Pig 5/14/11 6:20 p.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreuberfoop 5/13/11 4:36 p.m.
                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/13/11 4:50 p.m.
                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreuberfoop 5/13/11 5:35 p.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreSimpsons Rule 5/16/11 12:12 a.m.
                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/16/11 1:13 a.m.
                                                     Thoughts and conspiracies...Leviathan 5/16/11 2:22 a.m.
                                                           Re: Thoughts and conspiracies...Narcogen 5/16/11 3:52 a.m.
                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreuberfoop 5/16/11 2:44 a.m.
                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/16/11 4:05 a.m.
                                                                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreuberfoop 5/16/11 7:36 p.m.
                                                                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/17/11 12:13 a.m.
                                                                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreuberfoop 5/17/11 3:24 a.m.
                                                                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/17/11 5:39 a.m.
                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/16/11 8:16 a.m.
                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreLeviathan 5/16/11 10:13 a.m.
                                                                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/16/11 11:43 a.m.
                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/17/11 12:15 a.m.
                                                                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/17/11 10:18 a.m.
                                                                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreLouis Wu 5/17/11 10:56 a.m.
                                                                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreLeviathan 5/17/11 11:46 a.m.
                                                                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymorescarab 5/17/11 3:13 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreLeviathan 5/17/11 4:35 p.m.
                                                                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/17/11 1:22 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreBry 5/17/11 1:40 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/17/11 1:50 p.m.
                                                                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreBry 5/17/11 1:57 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/18/11 12:12 a.m.
                                                                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/18/11 8:54 a.m.
                                                                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreLouis Wu 5/18/11 9:20 a.m.
                                                                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/18/11 9:57 a.m.
                                                                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/18/11 11:29 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/19/11 6:56 a.m.
                                                                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/20/11 1:23 a.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/20/11 7:03 a.m.
                                                                                                                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/20/11 11:34 p.m.
                                                                                                                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/21/11 8:47 a.m.
                                                                                                                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/22/11 11:33 p.m.
                                                                                                                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/23/11 8:10 a.m.
                                                                                                                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreBry 5/23/11 9:06 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/23/11 10:01 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreBry 5/23/11 10:53 a.m.
                                                                                                                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreGeneral Vagueness 5/23/11 10:31 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreQuirel 5/23/11 11:48 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreArchilen 5/24/11 1:44 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/24/11 6:18 a.m.
                                                                                                                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/24/11 1:01 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreQuirel 5/24/11 2:11 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreArchilen 5/24/11 3:24 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/24/11 4:07 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/24/11 8:03 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/24/11 3:36 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreBry 5/24/11 5:45 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/24/11 6:34 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             You can't please everyone all of the time *NM*Bry 5/24/11 6:37 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenQuirel 5/27/11 3:23 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With Narcogenuberfoop 5/27/11 4:54 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenCody Miller 5/27/11 5:00 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenBeckx 5/27/11 6:10 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   The guy who mage Greedo shoot first *NM*scarab 5/28/11 3:56 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/27/11 5:25 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenQuirel 5/27/11 7:03 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/27/11 7:46 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenQuirel 5/27/11 8:39 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                         My take.BlueNinja 5/28/11 6:58 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenGeneral Vagueness 5/27/11 6:30 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/27/11 6:51 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       +1 *NM*Document 5/28/11 4:30 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenDocument 5/28/11 5:42 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Great post. Love it.Gravemind 5/28/11 5:53 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Great post. Love it.Quirel 5/29/11 2:15 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenNarcogen 5/30/11 12:23 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/30/11 6:50 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenGeneral Vagueness 5/30/11 10:46 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With Narcogenpete_the_duck 5/30/11 11:01 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenGravemind 5/30/11 8:04 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/30/11 8:15 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                               o_OArithmomaniac 5/30/11 9:07 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: o_OStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/30/11 11:02 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenNarcogen 5/31/11 12:11 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/31/11 6:45 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenNarcogen 6/1/11 1:21 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenStephen L. (SoundEffect) 6/1/11 6:55 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                           Commentary Transcripts.Narcogen 6/2/11 3:00 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Commentary Transcripts.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 6/2/11 7:07 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Commentary Transcripts.Gravemind 6/2/11 1:17 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Commentary Transcripts.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 6/2/11 1:20 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Commentary Transcripts.Dagoonite 6/2/11 5:04 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Commentary Transcripts.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 6/2/11 7:06 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Commentary Transcripts.Narcogen 6/3/11 12:29 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Commentary Transcripts.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 6/3/11 8:14 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Commentary Transcripts.Louis Wu 6/3/11 8:27 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Chips.Hedgemony 6/3/11 8:40 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       338 repliesCody Miller 6/3/11 7:26 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: 338 repliesQuirel 6/3/11 7:47 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: 338 repliesLouis Wu 6/3/11 8:01 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Commentary Transcripts.Narcogen 6/5/11 11:04 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Commentary Transcripts.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 6/6/11 6:32 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Commentary Transcripts.General Vagueness 6/3/11 8:49 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Commentary Transcripts.Narcogen 6/5/11 11:07 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Commentary Transcripts.Narcogen 6/3/11 12:25 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Commentary Transcripts.resplendentvole 6/2/11 2:14 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Commentary Transcripts.scarab 6/2/11 4:49 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Commentary Transcripts.Narcogen 6/3/11 12:30 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Commentary Transcripts.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 6/2/11 7:10 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Commentary Transcripts.Narcogen 6/3/11 12:39 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Commentary Transcripts.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 6/3/11 8:17 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Commentary Transcripts.Narcogen 6/3/11 12:19 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenGeneral Vagueness 5/30/11 10:51 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Johnson's survivalDocument 5/30/11 4:19 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenGeneral Vagueness 5/30/11 10:56 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With Narcogenpete_the_duck 5/30/11 11:09 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/30/11 11:20 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenNarcogen 5/31/11 12:22 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/31/11 6:24 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenNarcogen 6/1/11 1:11 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenStephen L. (SoundEffect) 6/1/11 6:33 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenNarcogen 6/2/11 1:29 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenGeneral Vagueness 5/30/11 11:34 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenGeneral Vagueness 5/30/11 11:44 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenNarcogen 5/31/11 12:29 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenLeisandir 5/31/11 12:05 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenLouis Wu 5/31/11 12:09 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenCody Miller 5/31/11 12:49 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenNarcogen 6/1/11 1:13 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenLouis Wu 6/1/11 7:07 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenNarcogen 6/2/11 1:28 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: My Comprehensive-ish Argument With NarcogenNarcogen 5/31/11 12:17 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Johnson's character statusDocument 5/30/11 4:09 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Reprise: Testing size limits on individual posts.Quirel 6/5/11 2:53 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Reprise: Testing size limits on individual posStephen L. (SoundEffect) 6/5/11 8:24 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Quirel- okay here's the response.Narcogen 6/13/11 5:01 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Quirel- okay here's the response.scarab 6/13/11 7:09 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/24/11 6:55 a.m.
                                                                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreGeneral Vagueness 5/17/11 12:26 p.m.
                                                                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/17/11 1:33 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreGeneral Vagueness 5/17/11 1:37 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/17/11 1:54 p.m.
                                                                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreGeneral Vagueness 5/17/11 2:24 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/17/11 5:34 p.m.
                                                                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreagdtinman 5/17/11 6:49 p.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreBry 5/17/11 8:34 p.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/17/11 9:48 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreBry 5/17/11 1:44 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/17/11 1:53 p.m.
                                                                                   Wrong example.Louis Wu 5/17/11 2:22 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Wrong example.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/17/11 5:39 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Wrong example.Narcogen 5/18/11 12:33 a.m.
                                                                                               Re: Wrong example.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/18/11 8:33 a.m.
                                                                                                     Re: Wrong example.Narcogen 5/18/11 11:34 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/18/11 12:27 a.m.
                                                                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/17/11 11:37 p.m.
                                                                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/18/11 6:44 a.m.
                                                                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/18/11 7:27 a.m.
                                                                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/18/11 9:52 a.m.
                                                                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/18/11 11:40 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/19/11 6:24 a.m.
                                                                                                           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/19/11 6:52 a.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/19/11 8:17 a.m.
                                                                                                                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/20/11 1:26 a.m.
                                                                                                                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/20/11 7:22 a.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/13/11 2:25 a.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/13/11 11:17 a.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreHawaiian Pig 5/14/11 6:10 p.m.
                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreCody Miller 5/15/11 2:55 a.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/15/11 10:59 p.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreBry 5/12/11 4:33 p.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreAvateur 5/12/11 4:48 p.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreBeckx 5/12/11 5:01 p.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreAvateur 5/12/11 5:10 p.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymorescarab 5/12/11 6:09 p.m.
                                               Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreBeckx 5/13/11 7:35 a.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreBry 5/12/11 5:10 p.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreAvateur 5/12/11 5:25 p.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreQuirel 5/12/11 5:31 p.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreStephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/12/11 5:50 p.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreGeneral Vagueness 5/12/11 7:56 p.m.
                       How to Still Care About Halo.Narcogen 5/15/11 11:01 p.m.
                             Re: How to Still Care About Halo.Hoovaloov 5/16/11 7:17 a.m.
                                   Re: How to Still Care About Halo.Narcogen 5/17/11 12:17 a.m.
                             Well said.Kermit 5/16/11 9:55 a.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreNarcogen 5/13/11 2:22 a.m.
           I like this post *NM*Avateur 5/12/11 12:58 p.m.
           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreDuncan 5/12/11 4:38 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymorescarab 5/12/11 6:18 p.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymoreHoovaloov 5/16/11 7:20 a.m.
           I liked it better when humans were forerunnersFlynn J Taggart 5/12/11 6:36 p.m.
           Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymore *SP*Narcogen 5/13/11 2:21 a.m.
                 Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymore *SP*mc_leprechaun 5/13/11 12:07 p.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymore *SP*scarab 5/13/11 12:46 p.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymore *SP*mc_leprechaun 5/13/11 4:03 p.m.
                       Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymore *SP*Narcogen 5/15/11 10:53 p.m.
                             Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymore *SP*Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/16/11 6:26 a.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons don't bother me anymore *SP*Dagoonite 5/16/11 9:40 a.m.
     Why Retcons annoy me to no end...The BS Police 5/16/11 5:41 a.m.
           Re: Why Retcons annoy me to no end...RC Master 5/16/11 10:54 a.m.
                 Re: Why Retcons annoy me to no end...General Vagueness 5/16/11 11:56 a.m.
                       Re: Why Retcons annoy me to no end...The BS Police 5/16/11 3:46 p.m.
                             Re: Why Retcons annoy me to no end...General Vagueness 5/16/11 6:17 p.m.
     .....The Hell's A Retcon? (/dumb) *NM*Morpheus 5/16/11 8:24 a.m.
           Re: .....The Hell's A Retcon? (/dumb)Beckx 5/16/11 9:01 a.m.
           Retroactive Continuity...GrimBrother One 5/16/11 9:02 a.m.
                 Re: Retroactive Continuity...Morpheus 5/16/11 1:59 p.m.
                       Re: Retroactive Continuity...Quirel 5/16/11 6:42 p.m.
                             Re: Retroactive Continuity...Unique Name 5/16/11 7:27 p.m.
                                   Re: Retroactive Continuity...Quirel 5/16/11 7:54 p.m.
                                         You make no sense!ZackDark 5/16/11 9:00 p.m.
                                               Re: You make no sense!Quirel 5/16/11 10:20 p.m.
                                                     Re: You make no sense!Beckx 5/17/11 8:21 a.m.
                                                           Re: You make no sense!ZackDark 5/17/11 10:30 a.m.
     Why retcons do bother me.Gravemind 5/24/11 4:45 p.m.
           Re: Why retcons do bother me.General Vagueness 5/24/11 6:25 p.m.
           Amen, brother! *NM*The Loot 5/24/11 6:50 p.m.
           I've said it before, I'll say it again...Lurono 5/24/11 7:41 p.m.
                 Re: I've said it before, I'll say it again...The Loot 5/24/11 8:57 p.m.
                       Re: I've said it before, I'll say it again...General Battuta 5/24/11 8:58 p.m.
                 Re: I've said it before, I'll say it again...General Battuta 5/24/11 8:57 p.m.
                       Re: I've said it before, I'll say it again...Lurono 5/24/11 9:22 p.m.
                       Re: I've said it before, I'll say it again...The Loot 5/24/11 9:48 p.m.
           Re: Why retcons do bother me.Narcogen 5/25/11 8:01 a.m.
                 Re: Why retcons do bother me.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/25/11 8:30 a.m.
                       Re: Why retcons do bother me.Narcogen 5/26/11 12:10 a.m.
                             Re: Why retcons do bother me.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/26/11 7:12 a.m.
                                   Re: Why retcons do bother me.Narcogen 5/26/11 7:46 a.m.
                                         Re: Why retcons do bother me.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 5/26/11 1:07 p.m.
                                               Re: Why retcons do bother me.Narcogen 5/26/11 11:19 p.m.
                 Re: Why retcons do bother me.Archilen 5/25/11 11:43 a.m.
                       Re: Why retcons do bother me.Narcogen 5/26/11 12:14 a.m.
                             Re: Why retcons do bother me.Cody Miller 5/26/11 12:17 a.m.
                       Re: Why retcons do bother me.Narcogen 5/26/11 12:21 a.m.



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