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Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!
Posted By: RiveR <dazednhmmm@comcast.net>	Date: 3/19/08 11:54 p.m.
In Response To: Re: Sidewinder's back, baby! *NM* (RiveR) Porting maps is a great idea imo, a friend of mine wrote a great post touching the subject. This is only meant to compliment a great topic and post! If this is long too or if you feel its a confilct in any way-please delete this.....:-) Okay, so I wrote this up as a the rough draft for an article on which maps would port best from Halo CE to Halo 3 for the ************* front-page. However, it has languished in the author's forum for two weeks, essentially un-read and free of any sort of critique or comment. So, I thought I'd slap it up here for your reading amusement. I don't go into a lot of depth for each map, but the review might spark a stroll down memory lane... Be kind though, with regards to grammar and sub-par prose - I am a scientist, not a writer, lol. ------------------- In general, the Halo CE maps are deeply affected by the lack of fall damage in Halo 3 (well, there is fall damage, but you have to fall a really long way). Of course, "The Pistol" is not in Halo 3, and the Battle Rifle is an even weaker long-range weapon than in Halo 2. I'd like to look at these maps in two ways: first, would they translate well in a port to Halo 3, and second, should they be ported to Halo 3. Battle Creek --- Well, of course Battle Creek would port well to Halo 3. Fall damage is not critical to the map (although it made the rocket arch a much more dangerous place to be than it was in Beaver Creek, the Halo 2 remake of this map), and the map is not so big that losing the powerful Human Pistol of Halo CE does leave the map vulnerable to domination by a single sniper. Essentially nothing needs to be changed, although I agree with the decision already made in the first remake of this map to replace the ladders with ramps. Other than that, the basic geometry is a proven success. The question is whether Battle Creek should be remade. It brings almost nothing to the game that Isolation, the map I think Bungie wants to be the "new Battle Creek," doesn't already offer. Isolation does not, by default have teleporters behind the bases, but Forge can fix this (the spawns need some significant work if you do this, or chaos erupts). That very significant difference aside, the maps are actually quite similar. Furthermore, while Narrows is quite different from Battle Creek, it offers the same blueprint - a symmetric, medium sized map that excels in flag and slayer games. So while Battle Creek would obviously work in Halo 3, and would be a safe choice, it seems like a less than stellar choice to bring back. Sidewinder --- Personally, I am of the opinion that we have enough really big maps for Halo 3. That said, if Bungie wants to bring back some big map, any big map, from Halo CE or Halo 2, this is the one to bring back. Sidewinder was special because there were three very good ways to get from base to base quickly: 1) through the mountain, 2) by vehicle across the ice, and 3) by the chain of teleporters. Really, it was the teleporters that made the map special - they made a really big map play like a much smaller map, while still allowing for exciting vehicle play. Fall damage is not critical to the map (there are a few drops that were risky in Halo CE that would not be anymore), so the only question is whether the map is too big and yet too open to translate well. In Halo CE, a player caught in the open could defend himself from a sniper with the Human Pistol. It isn't clear the Battle Rifle is strong enough to offer that sort of protection. However, adding some extra boulders and building features could handle that without ruining the game for team sniper games. Damnation --- Damnation might be my personal favorite map from Halo CE - which is why it pains me to admit the map would not port well into Halo 3. Fall damage is critical to this map. The drop from the Camouflage beam to the Rockets should be deadly. The jump from the lower Sniper spawn to the Over Shield should be risky. Drops from the highest catwalk to almost anywhere should be risky or fatal. Without those risks, the map dynamic completely changes. It might be possible to bring the map into Halo 3 by making all of those jumps risky by using thin walkways over a bottomless pit, but a great deal of effort would be required to redesign all those jumps and falls into an appropriately risky format. Given all this, the map is unlikely to port well, and so it shouldn't be ported. Rat Race --- Neither the lack of fall damage nor the shorter range combat of Halo 3 impact the play of Rat Race all that much. Unfortunately, my favorite trick from Rat Race, shooting the power-ups to make them fall from the second level, does not appear to work in Halo 3. Still, we can hardly disqualify the map on that basis. In fact, aside from that somewhat trivial complaint, it is hard to see how the basic geometry would not transfer excellently. All of the dimensions of Rat Race are well suited to Assault Rifle / Battle Rifle fights, and the double-layer structure combined with the teleports give the map a lot of flexibility in terms of getting from point A to point B. The map is asymmetrical, but it comes from a time before one-flag CTF, meaning that it is one of those special Halo maps that is asymmetrical, but still fun for multi-flag CTF. I would guess that in today's hyper-competetive Halo world, that players would quickly break that asymmetry and render two-flag CTF a non-competetive gametype, but still, the board is guaranteed to work for slayer, hill, and territory games (and, of course, one-flag games). Very little would need to change to make the map work - the biggest question is which level from the Campaign would be used for the textures. It seems to me the underground base from Crow's Nest is the most natural choice, but a half-Flood infested, half-Forerunner structure (similar to Isolation) would work well too. Of course, the trick with Rat Race is that Halo 3 doesn't need Rat Race. There are plenty of asymmetric maps that do what Rat Race does. Rat Race has a certain elegant economy of space to it, but when thinking about what Halo 3 needs from Halo CE, it is hard to make a case for Rat Race. Still, sometimes it might be better to get what you want than what you need. Prisoner --- This is yet another map that is hurt by the lack of fall damage. It is an easier map to "fix" though than one like Damnation - the bottom floor could, for the most part, be replaced with a bottomless pit and a set of narrow ramps to enforce very precise jumps from any height. It isn't clear what Prisoner brings to Halo 3 though. In many ways Construct is able to offer much of what Prisoner did. Construct is a bit wider, but offers similar multi-tier play. Construct may even be "fairer" in the sense that a team caught on the bottom has more ways to get up high on Construct than on Prisoner. So while Prisoner might actually translate well, it isn't clear that it brings anything to Halo 3 that the game really needs. Hang 'em High --- Sadly, Hang 'em would not port well at all. The re-make for Halo 2 did not work out well because Hang 'em relied critically on both fall damage and the deadly range of the Human Pistol. Chill Out --- Chill Out is a classical asymmetrical Halo CE map, one of its most iconic. Because Chill Out relies so little on fall damage, it is also a great candidate for porting into Halo 3. The spacing would need to be changed though for some of the jumps - with larger jump distances in H3, the jump to the rockets would need to be lengthened to make the jump somewhat skillful to execute correctly. Aside from some spacing issues for jumps, Chill Out would translate very well. Any number of graphical, thematic overhauls are possible. Bungie likes to theme multiplayer maps using geometry from the single player campaign. Chill Out could easily be updated as a crashed and twisted set of tunnels in a Flood infested High Charity. Or the map could be recast as the Elite's answer to the Pit - a training facility on the Shipmaster's vessel. While Halo 3 has a healthy complement of asymmetrical maps, Chill Out was such an iconic map that bringing it back would be fine even if the map wasn't filling a hole in Halo 3's map line-up. Derelict --- Desolation, the Halo 2 remake of this map, was not particularly successful (although I liked it for two versus two slayer games), and at first glance, you have to wonder how. Well, it was simple - they replaced teleporters with lifts, making it impossible to go quietly from level to level in more than one way (to be fair, they did add ramps while Derelict featured only the teleporters), they stripped the upper level of meaningful cover, and they made the map too big. As a consequence, it was almost impossible to cross the map without being picked apart by team-fire from multiple Battle Rifles, and if you were unfortunate enough to be playing on the map with an SMG start, the surprising size meant that if you didn't spawn near one of the Battle Rifles, you were toast. We can fix all of these problems with Forge. Even if we are forced to work with the larger geometry of something like Desolation, with Forge we can make any small or medium symmetric map work. Boarding Action --- Boarding Action was a sniper map that could certainly be made to work in Halo 3. Bungie would doubtlessly place Man-cannons on the map instead of teleporters to make the map more of a "Halo 3" map in their minds, but custom gamers would Forge teleporters back on immediately and everyone would be happy. Boarding Action was played as a sniper map, but is flexible enough to work in an environment where the primary weapon is a Battle Rifle or Assault Rifle, especially once the ships were moved closer in order to restore ship-to-ship grenade throws. While nobody would be shooting successfully from ship to ship with an Assault Rifle, so long as it is relatively easy to get from ship to ship quietly and jump quickly between levels, the map has promise. Levels would have to overhang in such a fashion as to make simply dropping from the 5th level to the first just anywhere impossible though. Blood Gulch --- Coagulation (the Halo 2 Blod Gulch remake) proved that a map this big and open requires a more powerful ranged base weapon than the Halo 2 Battle Rifle, and the Halo 3 Battle Rifle is even weaker. Otherwise, snipers and vehicles dominate. Of course, some gamers really enjoy vehicle play, and Blood Gulch has become a truly iconic map thanks to Red vs. Blue. If ported more or less "as is," Blood Gulch could expect to be dominated by vehicles and snipers. However, Valhalla is evidence Bungie has learned from Coagulation. Valhalla is the "new Blood Gulch," and it is made much smarter - the rolling hills provide foot traffic with more cover, and while the man cannons are less elegant than a teleporter, they do at least ensure players can get at least halfway across the map with celerity. So, if Blood Gulch were updated with the lessons made evident in Valhalla, what would it be bringing to the table? Aside from being an icon, Valhalla does everything Blood Gulch does, and it does it more fairly. There is always demand for large, vehicle and big party friendly maps, but Sidewinder is so much more compelling it is hard for me to take Blood Gulch seriously. Sidewinder provides all the space for big games while still providing other options thanks to the network of platforms around the periphery that can be tied together by teleporters and the inside pass through the mountain. Wizard --- Wizard would port extremely well to Halo 3 - the geometry is classically Halo and has been proven to work not only in a world where the Magnum rules, but also in one where players charged in with SMG's and Battle Rifles in Halo 2. The small, symmetric layout of Wizard means that it would fill a vital hole in the map line-up for Halo 3, but should it be ported into the game, given that the map has seen so much play in both of the previous titles in the series? Are any twists required to keep the map fresh? This is the one of the cases where I am going to argue that no, the geometry should be held fairly constant. The map obviously would require a graphical update - perhaps a Flood overrun structure with textures from the "Cortana" level of Halo 3 - but the overall dynamic of the geometry, while familiar, is too good to change. The balance of teleporters and platforms revolving tightly around a central structure with four-fold symmetry just works. The ladders leading into the bases were replaced with airlifts for Halo 2, and this time it might be neat to see a tight, spiraling ramp leading into a slightly smaller base instead for some variety. These ramps would allow players to control their ascent and provide interesting strategic offensive and defensive options - can we say Tripmine, anyone? The biggest question mark about this map would be what to call it: Sorcerer? Magician? Most of the other ways of saying "Wizard" just aren't as cool. Chiron TL34 --- If you ever wonder whether the Halo storyline was solid back in 2001, the check the tag line for Chiron. Spartan clone training facility? Clone? An interesting map, but difficult to re-do, especially if all the teleporters were indeed Forgeable. Some kind of fail-safe would need to be built in that always allowed players to fix broken teleport chains if a bad mistake was made in Forge. However, the ability to intentionally remove sections of the map by breaking the teleporter chains would provide a nifty level of customization, and re-working the "maze" to torment your friends could easily provide a lot of amusement. Still, it is hard to take seriously the idea of Bungie remaking this map, especially with Forgeable teleporters. Even without Forgeable teleporters, this map was never a fan favorite in any way in Halo CE, and so I am not going to think about it much more. Longest --- The Halo 2 remake (Elongation) was not terribly inspiring already. Of course, it is a little unfair to therefore claim Longest could not be remade better. In principle, any symmetric map is at least serviceable. Longest did not rely on fall damage to make the map work and while the long range Pistol shots down the halls would be tough to replicate perfectly with Battle Rifles, an easy fix would be to simply shorten the halls slightly in order to preserve the tension in a charge across the floor. Still, it is worth asking why Elongation was not particularly successful. Was it simply that the conveyor belts added unnecessary complications, or was it something else? It is hard to pin down, but the map jut did not play right. Whenever it is hard to pin down on geometry, we have to look at weapons and spawns, and these are two things we can always fix with Forge. Given Forge in our back pocket, it is hard to see how a Longest remake could truly fail. On the other hand of course, Longest was not particularly a fan favorite, and it has already been remade. It is hard to see Bungie doing this one again. Before I move on, one good thing about the Halo 2 remake was that it was significantly brighter - I actually used to turn my flashlight on when playing Longest sometimes (mostly as a joke, but still). Maps can be dark and atmospheric, but if there is a lesson to take from Longest, it is that there is such a thing as too dark. Ultimately, my top three have to be Wizard, Chill Out, and Derelict. Realistically, Bungie is unlikely to remake Derelict, and also probably unlikely to remake Wizard (although, if there is a map that should be in all three Halo games, it is Wizard). They might re-make Blood Gulch just for the good folks at Red vs. Blue, but I hope not. Battle Creek is another real possibility as an iconic fan favorite, and the map would actually help fill a hole in Halo 3's line-up (although I maintain Bungie wants Isolation to be the new Battle Creek). _________________

Message Index

Sidewinder's back, baby!	Gravemind	3/19/08 1:01 a.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	Omega	3/19/08 1:04 a.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	Gravemind	3/19/08 1:18 a.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	Louis Wu	3/19/08 8:46 a.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	Omega	3/19/08 10:37 a.m.
Whoa. That was close. *NM*	Gravemind	3/19/08 1:23 p.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby! *NM*	RiveR	3/19/08 11:41 p.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	RiveR	3/19/08 11:54 p.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	xenøs	3/20/08 6:00 a.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	Gravemind	3/19/08 1:05 a.m.
So pretty... *NM*	Eiii	3/19/08 1:33 a.m.
Do the Mancannons shoot you OVER the central wall?	Leviathan	3/19/08 1:40 a.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	gunluva	3/19/08 1:44 a.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	InnerRayg	3/19/08 1:57 a.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	Ragashingo	3/19/08 2:07 a.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	Zerowind117	3/19/08 2:45 a.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	ACEfanatic02	3/19/08 3:11 a.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	Avateur	3/19/08 3:29 a.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	FyreWulff	3/19/08 3:58 a.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	DiscipleN2k	3/19/08 1:03 p.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	Louis Wu	3/19/08 1:17 p.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	DiscipleN2k	3/19/08 2:59 p.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	Ragashingo	3/19/08 8:40 a.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	sketchfactor	3/19/08 2:11 p.m.
Won't physics be an issue??	Boxer	3/19/08 3:01 p.m.
Tombstone (R.I.P.)	Stuntmutt	3/19/08 3:01 p.m.
Re: Tombstone (R.I.P.)	BolognaFire	3/19/08 3:12 p.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	Ragashingo	3/19/08 3:07 p.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	Urban Reflex	3/19/08 3:59 p.m.
Wow, nobody has replied to this yet?	SinisterSamurai	3/19/08 3:14 p.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	Dustbunny27	3/19/08 3:16 p.m.
Re: Do it Sketch!	Devin Olsen	3/19/08 3:32 p.m.
I'm torn	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	3/19/08 3:35 p.m.
Ahem. "Classic Sack" maybe? *NM*	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	3/19/08 3:37 p.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	elessar787	3/19/08 3:37 p.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	sketchfactor	3/19/08 3:52 p.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	Urban Reflex	3/19/08 4:04 p.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	Bootsman	3/19/08 6:55 p.m.
Better/Slower > Faster/Crappier	ToastyKen	3/20/08 6:56 a.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	calmkiller	3/20/08 10:08 a.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	NOKYARD	3/20/08 11:12 a.m.
I would settle for some extra large cracked decal *NM*	SinisterSamurai	3/20/08 11:24 a.m.
+ audio of the ice cracking & popping *NM*	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	3/20/08 12:32 p.m.
True *NM*	SinisterSamurai	3/20/08 12:46 p.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	Nevan	3/19/08 3:46 p.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	Urban Reflex	3/19/08 3:51 p.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	Slothboy	3/19/08 3:52 p.m.
Verticality!	sorahn	3/19/08 4:03 p.m.
Re: Verticality!	Urban Reflex	3/19/08 4:11 p.m.
Re: Verticality! === Construct *NM*	Magni Harvald	3/19/08 5:01 p.m.
ramps or raised platforms =/= grav lifts :( *NM*	BolognaFire	3/19/08 5:08 p.m.
Re: ramps or raised platforms =/= grav lifts :(	Ducain	3/19/08 5:21 p.m.
Re: Verticality! === PRISONER	makaveli0360	3/19/08 4:19 p.m.
Re: Verticality! === Boarding Action	bluerunner	3/19/08 4:29 p.m.
Re: Verticality! === Boarding Action	sketchfactor	3/19/08 5:37 p.m.
Re: Verticality! === Boarding Action	SinisterSamurai	3/19/08 7:09 p.m.
NOW HERES A MAN THAT TALKS SENSE /\	nomis78	3/19/08 9:40 p.m.
Sor, there is Isolation. That map confuses.	Mr. Kint	3/21/08 3:25 p.m.
Doesn't Construct fit the bill? *NM*	pete_the_duck	3/21/08 4:12 p.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	Cody Miller	3/19/08 4:03 p.m.
Tombstone=please god no	makaveli0360	3/19/08 4:18 p.m.
Re: Tombstone=please god no	wafermouse	3/19/08 5:26 p.m.
Re: Tombstone=please god no	Duncan	3/19/08 6:17 p.m.
Re: Tombstone=please god no	Magni Harvald	3/19/08 6:22 p.m.
Halo 2 Map pack + question	sorahn	3/19/08 4:31 p.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	xMixMasterx	3/19/08 4:43 p.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	Psychophan7	3/19/08 4:44 p.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	Grimlock	3/19/08 7:12 p.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	Don	3/19/08 4:46 p.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	QuickTactical	3/19/08 5:01 p.m.
My ideal scenario	wafermouse	3/19/08 5:03 p.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	jazo	3/19/08 5:20 p.m.
Please! My top 7.	Duncan	3/19/08 6:08 p.m.
Re: Please! My top 7.	Magni Harvald	3/19/08 6:20 p.m.
Here's my thoughts sketch.	VVM	3/19/08 7:24 p.m.
Good points, all	Jordan117	3/20/08 5:03 a.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	Black Six	3/19/08 9:33 p.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	Avateur	3/19/08 10:20 p.m.
Response to the question	InnerRayg	3/20/08 3:13 a.m.
Thanks Bungie! My response *long*	Awe Venger	3/20/08 4:36 a.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	xenøs	3/20/08 7:30 a.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	discopete019	3/20/08 9:23 a.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	serpx	3/20/08 10:54 a.m.
Enough about Sidewinder. Where's Prisoner?!	Boxer	3/20/08 11:01 a.m.
With Halo 2 & 3's fall physics, Prisoner would be-	SinisterSamurai	3/20/08 11:28 a.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	FyreWulff	3/21/08 5:50 p.m.
Another opinion on map pricing and packaging	FyreWulff	3/21/08 5:58 p.m.
Re: Another opinion on map pricing and packaging	elpolloguapo	3/21/08 7:39 p.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	Avateur	3/19/08 1:51 a.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	vlad3163	3/19/08 1:58 a.m.
Lars Bakken was WRONG	Jordan117	3/19/08 2:04 a.m.
Re: Lars Bakken was WRONG	Xmoosev3	3/19/08 4:06 a.m.
Re: Lars Bakken was WRONG	FyreWulff	3/19/08 4:27 a.m.
Re: Lars Bakken was WRONG	BolognaFire	3/19/08 5:57 a.m.
Re: Lars Bakken was WRONG	Xmoosev3	3/19/08 8:25 a.m.
OMG thead is shaped like Sidewinder *NM*	Delicious Pie	3/19/08 1:13 p.m.
Re: Lars Bakken was WRONG	sketchfactor	3/19/08 2:13 p.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	FyreWulff	3/19/08 2:24 a.m.
Anyone else spot the teleporter in the base?	ACEfanatic02	3/19/08 2:26 a.m.
Time to bust out the jackets.	VVM	3/19/08 2:36 a.m.
One Word: Teleporters. WOOT WOOT!!! *NM*	Zerowind117	3/19/08 2:38 a.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	343winks.	3/19/08 2:45 a.m.
thats a whole lotta man cannon	nomis78	3/19/08 7:58 a.m.
Re: thats a whole lotta man cannon	Omega	3/19/08 8:33 a.m.
...That's it?	Psychophan7	3/19/08 9:26 a.m.
You know...	Simpsons Rule	3/19/08 9:42 a.m.
:argh:	Hawaiian Pig	3/19/08 11:28 a.m.
Re: ...That's it?	Louis Wu	3/19/08 9:43 a.m.
Re: ...That's it?	Psychophan7	3/19/08 10:04 a.m.
Re: ...That's it?	Miguel Chavez	3/19/08 11:18 a.m.
Re: ...That's it?	sketchfactor	3/19/08 2:20 p.m.
Are we going to see rocket cliff ?	SPARTAN 294	3/19/08 3:13 p.m.
Re: Are we going to see rocket cliff ?	sketchfactor	3/19/08 3:56 p.m.
Re: Are we going to see rocket cliff ?	Moose Lord	3/19/08 4:08 p.m.
Re: Are we going to see rocket cliff ?	DiscipleN2k	3/19/08 4:20 p.m.
Re: Are we going to see rocket cliff ?	sketchfactor	3/19/08 4:22 p.m.
Dream come true for me!	Burr	3/19/08 5:18 p.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	Cody Miller	3/19/08 10:39 a.m.
Please keep the ice patches!	Elite Spartan II	3/19/08 5:41 p.m.
Re: Or Rocket Race *NM*	SinisterSamurai	3/19/08 7:14 p.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	AnEternalEnigma	3/19/08 5:54 p.m.
Re: Sidewinder's back, baby!	VRaptorX	3/20/08 9:12 a.m.