In Response To: War, Religion, & Politics (axman)
: i've been waiting for someone to connect the Covenant with Islam... I'm not
: sure it's really applicable to it directly. but the idea does fit well
: with the Arab-Muslim governments that point at the US as the "Great
: Satan" to deflect the frustration and hatred of their citizens away
: from themselves so that they can stay in power. The caste system does seem
: a bit more like Hinduism
: does "patriotism / nationalism" require the attacking of other
: nations just because they're another nation? it doesn't just depend on who
: grabs the "moral high ground" for the comparison. look at japan
: in the 1930s- its actions were not just patriotic- they were racist &
: imperialistic as well. Could they say *truthfully*, "oh, we were just
: being patriotic" in the way someone that puts "proud to be an
: American" on his car bumper can? i doubt it.
: back to halo...
: If ONI or human pirates really did start the war, then the Covenant response
: could be characterized as "patriotic". The characterization of
: humanity as lower lifeforms would then be understandable- get the soldiers
: in the trenches to fight by de-humanizing (de-intelligencizing?) the
: enemy. it's been done by probably every gov at war (how to motivate the
: soldiers to fight the enemy if they think the other guy ain't so bad?)
: however... i'm not so sure about this.
: i don't remember any evidence in any of the books that indicates that there
: was any other reason for the war from the Covenant's point of view than
: religious fanaticism. [*if i remember correctly*] i think it has been
: noted that the covenant didn't fire on the humans originally until they
: tried to identify themselves. also, somewhere it says something along the
: lines of, [again, if i remember correctly], that "a name implies
: legitimacy, and the humans were not legitimate. so they must be
: exterminated". Giving a name to something is a way to show dominion
: over it. By naming ourselves before the Covenant could do so (or rejecting
: their name for us) is to rebel against their dominion and set ourselves up
: as our own masters. The Covenant's subsequent response ["your
: destruction is the will of the gods"] does seem rather reminiscent of
: historical Islam (which spread by the sword). and the way the lower
: "castes" are kept in line by those higher (elites reassigning
: grunts around at will, prophets beheading elites who don't perform) along
: with the goal of the complete destruction of the enemy (no negotiating)
: reminds me of modern wahhabic* Islam.
: .02
: ~ax
: *think bin Laden. he doesn't want to "change" the US, he wants to
: destroy it and return Islamic culture to its "glory days" of
: ~1450-1800AD when it was more advanced than the "Christian
: West". [or Hamas that wants to end Israel's existence]
Axman:
Good points, but does patriotism allow for the invasion of a country when the administration has fixed ideas about finding an excuse to finish off a job that they didn't do several years ago? Especially when it was claimed that someone in that administration said "Find me a link with Iraq!" after 9/11 even though it was Al-Qaeida that did it. Especially as the reasons for going to war have not revealed anything to support the claims for this action (WMD?).
It's like taking a bollocking at work and because you can't get back at your boss you go home a kick the dog because it's the only way to take out your frustration on someone which is (a) not expecting it and (b) unable to defend themselves .
On the subject of morality and racism - the US was racist against Blacks even as recent as the 1940's/50's, and had a thriving slave trade at the time where slavery had been outlawed elsewhere in Europe (e.g. UK)
Where was the US morality when they used WMD on Hiroshima and Nagasaki (Japan) Did you forget about that?
Where is the morality when alot of Irish Americans give financial support to the IRA? Apparently the IRA were out canvasing for support in N.Y city on the day of 9/11.
ALL countries have committed atrocities at one time or other, but I suppose that it is easier on some people's consciences to put the blame on the others as being relgious fanatics/zealots.
There is no doubt that the US is the dominant country in the world and it's influence is global. However, not all countries and societies want to embrace that, and the way of life that goes with that. And perhaps they see their way of life and society + traditions being threatened, and that is what they don't like.
Plus they see what they think is double standards - supporting countries like Israel even when there are longstanding UN resolutions against them to pull out of the occupied territories (longer than the ones imposed on Iraq) - but of course there are alot of rich Jewish Americans to help sway opinion.
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