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	Re: Not so eternally bored after all
	Posted By: Forrest of B.org	Date: 8/12/04 9:13 p.m.
	In Response To: Not so eternally bored after all (Steve Levinson) : Well, I've finished Mark 1 of Eternal and can now comment more fully on the : overall start of the scenario. Things definitely did get better after that : first post, and I can comment more on some of the positives and negatives : of the scenario so far. On the positive side, I think that the story is : very well done and I especially like the terminals and the way that they : integrate hints of backstory - jut enough to get the player really : intrigued. It's a shame that one of the most interesting of all is on : Moontanning, where you really don't have the time to read it if you are to : succeed at your mission. There are some really inovative ideas in this : scenario and I like the way success or failure has real consequences. What : is missing, as in most scenarios, is the ability for the player to make : true choices. Forrest, as you develop subsequent chapters, I would urge : you to give the player the opportunity to choose which master to follow. : At least until Marathon Nonlinear and possibly Rubicon X come out, this : would be fairly unique. There is something similar in Ben Potter's Fell, : but I think you could provide the player with a much more tormenting : choice. Thank you for the compliments on the story. The idea about allowing players to choose a 'master' (none of them are really your 'master' exactly in a story context, they all need you) is interesting but would require the creation of significantly more maps, so it probably won't happen. It also goes sort of against the idea portrayed in Eternal of the "one true timeline" - that things NEED to go a certain way, with very little room for variance, otherwise the universe will eventually, sometime down the road, end in disaster. However, not all branch points are time-based - some of them depend only on what terminal you take out of the level, effectively being "which master you choose", and others on entirely other factors like whether or not you complete optional secondary objectives. : We've already talked about textures and this is truly the last thing that : needs to be addressed. I would again reiterate my opinion that the : textures are just to clean and monotonous This is largely a matter of : taste, I know, and the addition of scenery objects will help considerably, : but I would strongly recommend altering the "texture" of the : textures when you have a chance so that there is a true appearance of the : Marathon being made from a variety of different materials, as would : undoubtedly be the case. The most significant grievance I have with the : textures is with the terminals, PB's, rechargers and switches. If nothing : else, these should not have a roughened appearance. When was the last time : you saw an electronic device made from stone or concrete? These should all : have a metallic or plastic appearance. Good point about the terminals/chargers/etc. That's a fairly easy thing to fix too. Also, did you not notice that there ARE a good number of different materials used? The texture sets all feature combinations of eight "widgets" (the different shapes/things on the texture), in three "materials" (in the Marathon set, these are a canvas wallpaper, stone/concrete, and metal), and five colors. Maybe I just need to make the distinction between the three materials more noticable. : I now have some specific suggestions and comments, level by level: 0) The : manual: Don't you know that people don't read manuals? There is too much : good introductory stuff and backstory here to be left to be read. I would : strongly consider making an intro level along the lines of those in Trojan : and Rubicon, or maybe even EMR. This could be extremely simple, but it : would convey the information now in the manual and you would insure that : it would be read. This was (and still is, eventually) intended to be a prologue level. Just ran out of time to make it. The first section will be a chapter screen, the second section a terminal from Hathor on the level that follows it. : 1) Deja Vu All Over Again: I dunno - It's an OK level, but it doesn't really : feel like the Marathon. It seems a bit contrived, although monster : placement is fairly good and there is a lot to do. The problem is that the : player never really understands what they're doing or where they need to : go and they invariably end up going in circles. The long dark corridors : are good and consistent with the Marathon we know, but that drop-away wall : that opens to the large, dark open area just doesn't seem to fit. Overall, : we're talking about a few minor revisions to make this one great. The drop-away wall is easy enough to fix. As for getting lost, one problem I know needs addressing is the utter lack of maps in the terminals. I intended to put them in many places and, once again, just ran out of time to do it right. Hmm... does the #CHECKPOINT terminal section work in Aleph One? Would make inserting maps much easier... : 2) Boiler Room: This is probably the weakest of the levels, although the : monster placement is excellent and the gameplay is overall very good. The : most significant problem is that the level is somewhat monotonous - there : need to be more interesting variations along the way and places to : explore. Also, the search for the chip is, well, a chore. The player : shouldn't be expected to look in 8 pools of water to find it. Finally, you : are aware of the bug that leads to a trap without escape - this needs to : be fixed. Right, the dead end has been fixed. This level used to be a lot more interesting in an older version, when it was a Lava level (which is why there are so many chargers all over). I had the story excuse that overflows had jammed up some of the doorways, so even though you knew exactly where the chip was, you couldn't just walk straight through to it, some doors were partly blocked, you had to run around (hence the outer corridor, which was itself partly blocked in places), and once you got into the vat with the chip, the only way to get out in the right direction (toward the recepticle) was to swim through the lava across some channels connecting the vats. When D.M-A retextured it (the Lava set is used exclusively for Lh'owon and the end-chapter dreams now) he adjusted the floor heights so that all the doors were passable (makes sense, since it's no longer lava), and since the media is nondamaging now, the inter-vat channels made it easy just to swim straight to the chip, and the level got very short. So I guess I gotta think up some new excuse to make the level less easy to get around in. Any ideas? : 3) Stark Raven Mad - this is a very interesting Pfhor level with some cool : textures that strike a nice balance between the M2 and Infinity : variations. There is room for improvement as has been discussed, but I can : live with these. Because the player will almost certainly die multiple : times before surviving, I would suggest a PB near the exit point from : level 2. One key thing I would like to mention is that the Pfhor don't : like symetry. This has even been noted in another 3rd party scenario - I : think it was Scott N's Escape 2, but don't hold me to that. The bottom : line is that every Pfhor vessel we have encountered in Bungie's trilogy : are asymetric. Your ship is absolutely symetric. I'm not suggesting : ripping out major sections, but making selected alterations to give the : ship a more asymetric appearance would make it much more Pfhor-like. BTW, : I like the Jugger bay. Oh, there is a set of two switches that must be : toggled to gain access to the area with the enforcer ambush - one of the : doors is untextured, so if you flip the wrong switch first, the view is : disconcerting. As you know, the enforcers do not kill the player, but if : this is fixed, you'll need to tone that ambush down a bit to make it : survivable on TC. Hmmm, the symmetry thing is gonna be a big problem. In general, I make smaller vessels (ships, small spacestations) more symmetrical, and larger areas (the Marathon, outdoors on Lh'owon, etc) less symmetrical. I've already got a lot of Pfhor levels built very symmetrically, some of the best levels in the game IMO (Gamma Knife Therapy is probably the best map I've ever made, you won't see it until Ch3 though). I thought I fixed that untextured door, someone reported it before release. I'm also aware of the two untextured surfaces in the opening room that I never noticed because I always run like hell at the start of the level. And good to know that the ambush is too hard on TC, cause the Enforcers CAN kill you now. :-) And which Juggernaut bay do you mean, the one you start in or the "funhouse" with all the colored bars containing idle Juggies? Either way, thanks. : 4) G3 Moontanning: I think you have my comments already, but the layout is a : bit simplistic. I suppose it has to be in order to make it playable in 3 : minutes, what, 14 seconds? On the other hand, there isn't much else to : explore - I would consider adding a few more rooms with interesting : Marathon-related artifacts. The big issues I have with this level are the : time limit and the fact that the timer doesn't stop when the wires are : smashed. I believe you will be correcting the latter, but I would still : like to make a plea for the former. There is barely enough - barely enough : - time to succeed in the mission goals on Normal. The time isn't close to : sufficient on TC. You cannot release a scenario that isn't playable on all : levels of difficulty, so this needs to be fixed. I'm not sure if it's : possible to alter the timer with the level of difficulty, but there are a : number of things you could do to make it more challenging on Normal, but : to increase the time available (might I suggest 5 or 6 minutes) and have : it beatable on TC. This is a vacuum level, after all, so it shouldn't be : too hard to up the difficulty level. One thing - the player can : effectively skip flipping one of the initial switches - is this : acceptable? Yes, skipping one of the first two switches is acceptable and one of the ways that you have to play it to beat the level in time. (Real spaces aren't built so linearly that you have to push every button you see in order to get through. In level 15, which I'm building now, there's a nice big room full of smashable wires that don't do anything gameplay-wise, they're just wires in a computer core irrelevant to your objective, why do you wanna go smashing them up like that?) I am going to make the timer stop when you smash both wires, one way or another. And I suppose it is acceptable to make the timer longer, even for lower difficulties. I just want to make sure there is *some* good chance of failure, and I guess most people will probably kill every monster they see, recharge their O2 whenever they can, and explore thoroughly without realizing they ACTUALLY NEED TO HURRY, so another 2 mins to let those who are trying to hurry actually make it seems reasonable. Maybe I'll make it 314 seconds instead. :-) : 5) Un-wired: This level along with level 6 is what led to my first post. To : sum it up in one word - tedious. There are some very nice features to be : sure, but the level progression is uneven and the randomness of the : triggers to enter new areas is just plain lame. Put this on the shelf and : come back to it if you must, but you'll lose players if you leave it as : is. Yeah, the random triggers on this level really really bugged me, but I had to have a level 5, so I took what Bill gave me. Oddly enough some people actually liked them, said it felt like the original Marathon with Durandal being all wacky. But I'd rather be without them if I could. This'll probably be the first level I'll have Adam redo when he starts revising Ch1. : 6) Core Done Blew: This is actually a very good level except for one thing - : the regenerating monsters make it virtually unplayable on TC. You really : need to cut the monster regeneration rate by about 90% - the constant need : to kill and kill again makes this level tedious on any difficulty level, : and there's no escaping the monsters on TC. My suggestion is to cut the : regeneration level by a factor of 10 and add new, nonregenerating monsters : elsewhere throughout the level to level out the difficulty across all : settings. Already lowered the monster regen some (by half), but I guess I need to lower it more. : 7) Inti Omega: This is a really cool level - very nicely done. I especially : like the ending terminal. Again, I would suggest making the extravision : powerups invisible so that the player won't have a clue as to why things : are as they are. Good idea. : 8) I Can't Believe It's Not Total Carnage: Well, for me, it is. I've already : posted my suggestions directly to Adam. This is by far the strongest map : in the scenario. Fix Moontanning so that the player can arrive with, : preferably, 2X shields and it's highly playable. My advice is to twist : Adam's arm and get him to contribute more levels once he returns from : Italy. He's in Italy? But yeah, I definitely want more maps from him. And everyone else too, grr! [snaps whip] Don't make me put on my pleather chaps! Erm... sorry, wrong forum... : 9) Can't TOTZ This: Well, on the plus side, unlike level 6, this one can be : beaten on TC, but it's extremely difficult. Ulike level 6 where you can : theoretically outrun the monsters, there is no option for this here - the : narrow passages, particularly around the only PB and shield recharger, : virtually insure that the player will be spending a lot of time fighting : major fighters and troopers. This once again makes gameplay a bit : monotonous. Also, the level overall is rather small and not well : developed. I think that the player should have much more to do here and : should spend a lot less time fighting the Pfhor. Again, I strongly : recommend cutting your monster regeneration rate by at least a factore of : 10. That central pillar in the core room does help to shield the player : from the enemies, but it's possible to fall in to the center, into an area : that is untextured, creating a very weird effect. To repeat, cut the : monster regeneration rate and add more places to explore and things to do : (not necessarily flipping switches, however) and this will be a much : better level. This is another one of those levels that I wanted to be completely redone, but didn't really have time to. Tycho's comments that "this area has been repurposed many times and is currently nonfunctional" are basically my tongue-in-cheek way of saying that this is one of the oldest maps in the scenario, it's been changed around a billion times (in Forge you can still almost see the resemblance to a TOZ-T in profile, hence the old name), and I'm sorry it's such crap. One question: how did you manage to fall down the center of the pillar? The whole thing is supposed to rise as one piece. And I'll turn down the respawn rate as in level 6. : 10) Where Giants Have Fallen: I'll wait to comment on this once I see how it : integrates into Chapter 2. I shiver with antici ....... ....... ....... pation. : I have a couple of additional thoughts. Firstly, if you want to make this : seem more like the Marathon, have the player visit areas that are vaguely : familiar. You can either incorporate some portions of levels from M1A1 : into one of your maps or you could even include one of the original : levels, but modified to fit your story. Of course, you would need : permission of the author to do this, but I'm sure you'll get it. What : would really be cool is to visit a part of the Marathon that everyone : would recognize, but to visit it either long before the time of our last : experiecne, when it's filled with bobs and free of Pfhor, or much later : than when last seen, when it's covered with Pfhor blood and guts. A third : option is to have familiar portions of the Marathon visible from the : windows of your levels. I think that these measures would really help to : tie your story into Bungie's Maraverse. I'll give those ideas some consideration, or more likely tell Adam to give them consideration when he's revamping Ch1, but in my defense are, I intentionally placed the entire plot (at least, the "success" branch) outside of areas that could influence the original Marathon story, so as not to screw up that timeline. Before the netsplit, you're in an area that the Pfhor have been cutting sensors in; after it, the netsplit has isolated your area from the rest of the network, and then you purposefully isolate it further. All this, from an outside-of-the-story author's perspective, is to make sure that nothing you do affects the original Marathon timeline. The "failure" branch is a failure BECAUSE it does change the timeline. Even Tycho's destruction... he was "destroyed in the initial attack" according to Leela in M1 (which is still going on when we leave Marathon in Eternal), and then later "assimilated" and reassembled by the S'pht in Durandal's image. The way Tycho was destroyed in Eternal, and he even mentions this, is in a way that large parts of his program are recoverable, frozen in memory, though he could not be recovered the same. Hence the different Tycho we find in M2, rebuilt by the S'pht under Pfhor command... The second point is, as I have mentioned before, Eternal is not about the Marathon. Chapter 1 is, and making it feel more like Marathon would be good for the atmosphere of that chapter, but it's not a pivotal point for the entire scenario. From here on out we go father and father afield, though chapter 3 does see a return to some familiar sites. As an aside, have you read the Story Synopsis? If not, please don't... I'd like to see someone's unspoiled reactions to how the plot develops. : Finally, your AI cores are very interesting. You have circular rooms with : wires, not unlike what we see on the Pfhor vessels, and we have data nodes : that are vaguely similar to Thoth's Jjaro nodes. Marathon data constructs : shoud appear to be primitive compared to either the Pfhor or Jjaor : constructs - not sure if I would modify what you've done, but it's a : thought. But should Marathon AI cores be primitive compared to the Pfhor? We're told that the Pfhor have pathetically primitive AIs compared to those on the Marathon, and there has been much suggestion that the Marathon AIs were in fact based on Jjaro technology. The wires you smash are referred to in Eternal as "cyber-neural nets", and though it's not explicity stated, in the Eternalified Maraverse in my head, they are specific circuits just for AI processing. These are not just general-purpose computing centers, they are dedicated AI brains. Maybe based on Jjaro technology? I don't know. But I think they look cool. :-) : Good luck with everything, Forrest. Again, I'll be happy to beta test as work : progresses. Thanks! I feel a lot better now :-)

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Replies:

	Not so eternally bored after all	Steve Levinson	8/12/04 12:06 p.m.
	Re: Not so eternally bored after all	Yossarian	8/12/04 12:38 p.m.
	Re: Not so eternally bored after all	Mr. Cactus	8/12/04 8:06 p.m.
	Re: Not so eternally bored after all	Forrest of B.org	8/12/04 9:13 p.m.
	Re: Not so eternally bored after all	D-M.A.	8/13/04 5:50 a.m.
	Re: Not so eternally bored after all	Steve Levinson	8/13/04 7:18 a.m.
	Re: Not so eternally bored after all	Forrest of B.org	8/13/04 11:46 a.m.
	Re: Not so eternally bored after all	Steve Levinson	8/13/04 12:13 p.m.
	Re: Not so eternally bored after all	Forrest of B.org	8/13/04 12:49 p.m.
	Re: Not so eternally bored after all	Steve Levinson	8/13/04 1:29 p.m.
	Re: Not so eternally bored after all	Ben A. Potter	8/13/04 2:02 p.m.
	Re: Not so eternally bored after all	Forrest of B.org	8/13/04 4:26 p.m.
	Re: Not so eternally bored after all	Blayne	8/13/04 2:01 p.m.
	Re: Not so eternally bored after all	Forrest of B.org	8/13/04 4:30 p.m.

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