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Re: This isn't scientific stuff.
Posted By: thebruce0 <g.may@thebruce.net>Date: 1/16/13 9:59 a.m.

In Response To: Re: This isn't scientific stuff. (Gravemind)


: Instead of wasting all that time arguing about analogies (and people do spend
: too much time arguing over trivial minutiae such as semantics or whatnot
: instead of sticking to discussing the core essence of an argument), why
: didn't everyone just focus on what uberfoop's main point was, i.e., is it
: the dev's fault for providing tools (in this case the Boltshot) that might
: encourage the player to act a certain, arguably undesirable way? In other
: words, do we blame the player (for corner camping) or the game (for
: providing a 1sk spawn weapon that helps facilitate easy, effective corner
: camping)? That would have saved everyone a lot of time instead of this
: "Your analogy was poor" back-and-forth.

Exactly.
And that's part of what people get riled over - blaming the developer, instead of understanding that the fault doesn't simply lie with the provider because one doesn't like the tool, the "fault" is a subjective claim, or at least it needs more context. As you say, was its inclusion intentional by the developer? was it a mistake? are players doing what they've been given the choice to do? are they 'cheating' unfairly against others by exploiting an advantage? etc yadda yadda.

There's a thin line between discussion and debate, between facts and opinion in that context. Subjective topics, once recognized as being based on opinions, tend to go better once people can either respect the other viewpoint, or else agree to disagree. Technically, analogies are awful debate tactics because they're necessarily incomplete, imperfect representations, let alone existing anywhere between subjectivity and objectivity...

However, uberfoop's argument was implying the developer should be blamed for boltshot frustration (and analogized with someone enabling arson). Not prompting the question "who is to blame?" Thus the arguing.

But the boltshot debate isn't mine :P I barely play online MP, so my experience (and feelings) are quite irrelevant :P I simply tend to take a more devil's advocate position and foolishly insert myself in the middle of debates I feel are imbalanced for whatever reason :)

http://halo.thebruce.net



Message Index




Replies:

Bulletin.GrimBrother One 1/9/13 11:11 p.m.
     Re: Bulletin.Ragashingo 1/9/13 11:32 p.m.
     Sorry 343i, but your blue flames don't work on mePyroSporker16 1/9/13 11:33 p.m.
           Re: Sorry 343i, but your blue flames don't work onKalamari 1/9/13 11:47 p.m.
           Re: Sorry 343i, but your blue flames don't work onGrimBrother One 1/10/13 12:09 a.m.
                 Grim - 1 PyroSporker - 0 *NM*zoojoo 1/10/13 5:43 a.m.
                 DAMNNNNNNNNNNNNNAvateur 1/10/13 7:05 p.m.
           Re: Sorry 343i, but your blue flames don't work onBryan Newman 1/10/13 12:44 a.m.
           Agreed. *NM*Joe Duplessie (SNIPE 316) 1/10/13 6:46 a.m.
           Re: Sorry 343i, but your blue flames don't work onserpx 1/10/13 3:17 p.m.
                 Re: Sorry 343i, but your blue flames don't work onAvateur 1/10/13 7:09 p.m.
     "DLC fiascos?"NsU Soldier 1/10/13 12:10 a.m.
           Re: "DLC fiascos?"GrimBrother One 1/10/13 12:14 a.m.
                 Re: "DLC fiascos?"Bry 1/10/13 3:34 a.m.
                       I missed something I thinkRevenant1988 1/10/13 7:35 a.m.
                             Re: I missed something I thinkJDQuackers 1/10/13 8:34 a.m.
                                   To clarifyBry 1/10/13 9:03 a.m.
                                         Re: To clarifyRevenant1988 1/10/13 12:39 p.m.
           Re: "DLC fiascos?"uberfoop 1/10/13 12:15 a.m.
     What about SpOps 9 and 10?SonGoharotto 1/10/13 12:16 a.m.
           Frankie was right...munky-058 1/10/13 12:49 a.m.
                 Re: Frankie was right...SonGoharotto 1/10/13 9:29 a.m.
                       Re: Frankie was right...ZaneZavin 1/10/13 10:01 a.m.
                             I guess I had a brain fartSonGoharotto 1/10/13 11:23 a.m.
     "Halo 4 is the best [...] game in the series"RC Master 1/10/13 9:32 a.m.
           Re: "Halo 4 is the best [...] game in the series"GrimBrother One 1/10/13 10:19 a.m.
                 Re: "Halo 4 is the best [...] game in the series"uberfoop 1/10/13 7:09 p.m.
           Re: "Halo 4 is the best [...] game in the series"Grizzlei 1/10/13 4:00 p.m.
     What is IN this Title Update?Azo 'Galvat 1/10/13 11:10 a.m.
           Re: What is IN this Title Update?Ragashingo 1/10/13 11:37 a.m.
                 Re: What is IN this Title Update?Ranger15s 1/10/13 4:19 p.m.
                       Re: What is IN this Title Update?Ragashingo 1/10/13 5:10 p.m.
                             Re: What is IN this Title Update?Ranger15s 1/10/13 6:12 p.m.
                                   Re: What is IN this Title Update?Ragashingo 1/10/13 6:43 p.m.
                                   Re: What is IN this Title Update?Louis Wu 1/10/13 7:11 p.m.
                                         Re: What is IN this Title Update?uberfoop 1/10/13 7:30 p.m.
                                               Re: What is IN this Title Update?Ragashingo 1/10/13 8:32 p.m.
                                                     Re: What is IN this Title Update?uberfoop 1/10/13 8:47 p.m.
                                                     Re: What is IN this Title Update?Avateur 1/10/13 9:04 p.m.
                                                           Re: What is IN this Title Update?Ragashingo 1/10/13 9:22 p.m.
                                                                 Re: What is IN this Title Update?Avateur 1/10/13 9:41 p.m.
                                                                       Re: What is IN this Title Update?SonofMacPhisto 1/11/13 5:00 p.m.
                                                                             Re: What is IN this Title Update?ZackDark 1/11/13 6:09 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: What is IN this Title Update?Avateur 1/11/13 8:13 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: What is IN this Title Update?SonofMacPhisto 1/12/13 7:49 a.m.
                                                                                               Re: What is IN this Title Update?Bry 1/12/13 12:54 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: What is IN this Title Update?Avateur 1/12/13 12:59 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: What is IN this Title Update?SonofMacPhisto 1/12/13 12:59 p.m.
                                                                                                           Re: What is IN this Title Update?Bry 1/12/13 1:55 p.m.
                                         I love you, Wu.munky-058 1/10/13 7:42 p.m.
                                               Re: I love you, Wu.Avateur 1/10/13 7:55 p.m.
                                                     Re: I love you, Wu.Bry 1/11/13 1:18 a.m.
                                                           Re: I love you, Wu.Avateur 1/11/13 7:57 p.m.
                                                                 CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG??? *NM*Bryan Newman 1/12/13 8:03 p.m.
                                               Re: I love you, Wu.advent29 1/10/13 8:10 p.m.
                                                     Re: I love you, Wu.General Vagueness 1/13/13 11:39 a.m.
                                               Wu is a cool man. Boltshot is still OP.NsU Soldier 1/11/13 8:44 a.m.
                                                     Re: Wu is a cool man. Boltshot is still OP.Louis Wu 1/11/13 11:40 a.m.
                                                           Re: Wu is a cool man. Boltshot is still OP.Azo 'Galvat 1/11/13 1:13 p.m.
                                                     More stats, and from a more frequent MM player...munky-058 1/11/13 1:45 p.m.
                                                           Re: More stats, and from a more frequent MM playerZackDark 1/11/13 4:17 p.m.
                                                                 Re: More stats, and from a more frequent MM playerRagashingo 1/11/13 4:53 p.m.
                                                           Your stats are nice. Boltshot is still OP.NsU Soldier 1/11/13 5:45 p.m.
                                                                 Re: Your stats are nice. Boltshot is still OP.Louis Wu 1/11/13 6:35 p.m.
                                                                       Re: Your stats are nice. Boltshot is still OP.DEEP NNN 1/11/13 8:12 p.m.
                                                                             Re: Your stats are nice. Boltshot is still OP.munky-058 1/11/13 8:21 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: Your stats are nice. Boltshot is still OP.DEEP NNN 1/11/13 8:29 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Your stats are nice. Boltshot is still OP.Avateur 1/11/13 8:45 p.m.
                                                                                               HBO: Statistics is hard. Statistics are hard? IDKGeneral Vagueness 1/12/13 7:51 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: HBO: Statistics is hard. Statistics are hard? uberfoop 1/12/13 8:09 p.m.
                                                                                                           Re: HBO: Statistics is hard. Statistics are hard?General Vagueness 1/13/13 1:07 a.m.
                                                                                                     Re: HBO: Statistics is hard. Statistics are hard? Avateur 1/12/13 9:11 p.m.
                                                                                                           Re: HBO: Statistics is hard. Statistics are hard?munky-058 1/12/13 9:53 p.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: HBO: Statistics is hard. Statistics are hard?Avateur 1/12/13 9:57 p.m.
                                                                                                                       Re: HBO: Statistics is hard. Statistics are hard?munky-058 1/13/13 2:44 a.m.
                                                                       Re: Your stats are nice. Boltshot is still OP.NsU Soldier 1/11/13 9:15 p.m.
                                                                             Re: Your stats are nice. Boltshot is still OP.Ragashingo 1/11/13 9:30 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: Your stats are nice. Boltshot is still OP.NsU Soldier 1/11/13 9:58 p.m.
                                                                                         Heh. *NM*Ragashingo 1/11/13 10:57 p.m.
                                                                             Re: Your stats are nice. Boltshot is still OP.Avateur 1/11/13 9:33 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: Your stats are nice. Boltshot is still OP.Avateur 1/11/13 9:35 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Your stats are nice. Boltshot is still OP.NsU Soldier 1/11/13 9:48 p.m.
                                                                             Re: Your stats are nice. Boltshot is still OP.Louis Wu 1/12/13 8:48 a.m.
                                                                 Re: Your stats are nice. Boltshot is still OP.munky-058 1/11/13 8:16 p.m.
                                                     Bravoprofhalo 1/11/13 9:34 p.m.
                                               Re: I love you, Wu.Phoenix_9286 1/12/13 6:41 p.m.
                                                     Re: I love you, Wu.munky-058 1/12/13 9:48 p.m.
                                                           Re: I love you, Wu.General Vagueness 1/13/13 1:14 a.m.
                                                                 Re: I love you, Wu.Phoenix_9286 1/13/13 2:42 a.m.
                                                                       Re: I love you, Wu.munky-058 1/13/13 3:12 a.m.
                                                                             Re: I love you, Wu.bryan newman 1/13/13 4:23 a.m.
                                                                                   Re: You are what you repeat!thebruce0 1/15/13 8:39 a.m.
                                         Re: What is IN this Title Update?tadboz 1/10/13 7:57 p.m.
                                         Re: What is IN this Title Update?Ranger15s 1/10/13 8:28 p.m.
                                               Re: What is IN this Title Update?Ragashingo 1/10/13 8:53 p.m.
                                                     /\ ThatLurono 1/10/13 10:55 p.m.
                                               Re: What is IN this Title Update?SonofMacPhisto 1/11/13 4:57 p.m.
                                         FallaciousRC Master 1/10/13 10:12 p.m.
                                               Re: FallaciousBry 1/11/13 1:47 a.m.
                                                     ^^This.Louis Wu 1/11/13 7:35 a.m.
                                               Re: FallaciousLouis Wu 1/11/13 7:34 a.m.
                                                     Re: Fallaciouspete_the_duck 1/11/13 9:50 a.m.
                                                           Re: FallaciousSchooly D 1/11/13 11:01 a.m.
                                                     Re: FallaciousRC Master 1/11/13 3:28 p.m.
                                                           Re: FallaciousRagashingo 1/11/13 3:55 p.m.
                                                                 Re: FallaciousRC Master 1/11/13 5:08 p.m.
                                         Re: What is IN this Title Update?Schooly D 1/11/13 7:09 p.m.
                                               Re: What is IN this Title Update?Joe Duplessie (SNIPE 316) 1/11/13 7:57 p.m.
                                               Maybe I asked the wrong question.Louis Wu 1/12/13 9:04 a.m.
                                                     Re: Maybe I asked the wrong question.SonofMacPhisto 1/12/13 11:24 a.m.
                                                           AddendumSonofMacPhisto 1/12/13 11:26 a.m.
                                                           And that's why I hate the Internet sometimes...TDSpiral 1/13/13 4:15 p.m.
                                                                 Re: And that's why I hate the Internet sometimes..Leviathan 1/13/13 5:08 p.m.
                                                     Re: Maybe I asked the wrong question.Avateur 1/12/13 12:47 p.m.
                                                           Re: Maybe I asked the wrong question.SonofMacPhisto 1/12/13 1:06 p.m.
                                                                 Re: Maybe I asked the wrong question.Azo 'Galvat 1/12/13 2:05 p.m.
                                                                       Re: Maybe I asked the wrong question.Louis Wu 1/12/13 2:14 p.m.
                                                                             Re: Maybe I asked the wrong question.Avateur 1/12/13 9:07 p.m.
                                                                       Re: Maybe I asked the wrong question.SonofMacPhisto 1/12/13 2:23 p.m.
                                                                 Re: Maybe I asked the wrong question.Avateur 1/12/13 9:05 p.m.
                                                           Re: Maybe I asked the wrong question.Louis Wu 1/12/13 2:03 p.m.
                                                                 Re: Maybe I asked the wrong question.SonofMacPhisto 1/12/13 2:14 p.m.
                                                                       Re: Maybe I asked the wrong question.Louis Wu 1/12/13 2:15 p.m.
                                                                             Re: Maybe I asked the wrong question.SonofMacPhisto 1/12/13 2:17 p.m.
                                                                 Re: Maybe I asked the wrong question.uberfoop 1/12/13 2:36 p.m.
                                                                 Re: Maybe I asked the wrong question.DEEP NNN 1/12/13 2:44 p.m.
                                                                 Re: Maybe I asked the wrong question.Avateur 1/12/13 3:15 p.m.
                                                                       Re: Maybe I asked the wrong question.Louis Wu 1/13/13 12:29 p.m.
                                                                             Re: Maybe I asked the wrong question.Joe Duplessie (SNIPE 316) 1/13/13 12:43 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: Maybe I asked the wrong question.Louis Wu 1/13/13 12:57 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Maybe I asked the wrong question.NsU Soldier 1/13/13 9:04 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Maybe I asked the wrong question.yakaman 1/14/13 9:19 a.m.
                                                                                               Re: Maybe I asked the wrong question.General Vagueness 1/14/13 7:16 p.m.
                                                                                               Re: Maybe I asked the wrong question.NsU Soldier 1/14/13 11:46 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: Maybe I asked the wrong question.yakaman 1/15/13 12:17 p.m.
                                                                                               Re: Maybe I asked the wrong question.thebruce0 1/15/13 8:58 a.m.
                                                                                                     Re: Maybe I asked the wrong question.Louis Wu 1/15/13 10:40 a.m.
                                                                                                           Re: Maybe I asked the wrong question.Revenant1988 1/15/13 10:53 a.m.
                                                                                                           Re: Maybe I asked the wrong question.thebruce0 1/15/13 1:41 p.m.
                                                                             Re: Maybe I asked the wrong question.Avateur 1/13/13 8:03 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: Maybe I asked the wrong question.thebruce0 1/15/13 9:03 a.m.
                                                                 HBO: Studies show 117% of statistics are made upGeneral Vagueness 1/12/13 7:56 p.m.
                                                                       Re: HBO: Studies show 117% of statistics are made uberfoop 1/12/13 8:03 p.m.
                                                                             Re: HBO: Studies show 117% of statistics are madeZackDark 1/12/13 9:20 p.m.
                                                                                   HBO: Studies show I will not sleepbreitzen 1/13/13 1:06 a.m.
                                                     Re: Maybe I asked the wrong question.mastrbiggy 1/13/13 7:04 a.m.
                                                     This isn't scientific stuff.Joe Duplessie (SNIPE 316) 1/13/13 8:46 a.m.
                                                           Re: This isn't scientific stuff.General Vagueness 1/13/13 11:47 a.m.
                                                                 Re: This isn't scientific stuff.Joe Duplessie (SNIPE 316) 1/13/13 12:26 p.m.
                                                                       Re: This isn't scientific stuff.Louis Wu 1/13/13 1:01 p.m.
                                                                             Re: This isn't scientific stuff.Joe Duplessie (SNIPE 316) 1/13/13 1:26 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: This isn't scientific stuff.Louis Wu 1/13/13 2:26 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: This isn't scientific stuff.Bry 1/13/13 2:34 p.m.
                                                                                         I've been waiting for someone else to say thisRevenant1988 1/13/13 4:20 p.m.
                                                                                               Re: I've been waiting for someone else to say thisAvateur 1/13/13 8:20 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: I've been waiting for someone else to say thisRevenant1988 1/13/13 8:45 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: I've been waiting for someone else to say thisZackDark 1/13/13 9:03 p.m.
                                                                                                           Re: I've been waiting for someone else to say thisBry 1/13/13 9:50 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: I've been waiting for someone else to say thisBry 1/13/13 9:13 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: This isn't scientific stuff.NsU Soldier 1/13/13 9:03 p.m.
                                                                                               Re: This isn't scientific stuff.Bry 1/13/13 9:40 p.m.
                                                           Re: This isn't scientific stuff.WhoLikesChicken 1/14/13 7:20 p.m.
                                                                 Re: This isn't scientific stuff.uberfoop 1/14/13 7:43 p.m.
                                                                       Re: This isn't scientific stuff.WhoLikesChicken 1/15/13 12:12 a.m.
                                                                             Re: This isn't scientific stuff.uberfoop 1/15/13 12:26 a.m.
                                                                                   Re: This isn't scientific stuff.WhoLikesChicken 1/15/13 12:39 a.m.
                                                                                         Re: This isn't scientific stuff.uberfoop 1/15/13 12:57 a.m.
                                                                                               Re: This isn't scientific stuff.Joe Duplessie (SNIPE 316) 1/15/13 1:26 a.m.
                                                                                               Re: This isn't scientific stuff.thebruce0 1/15/13 9:28 a.m.
                                                                                                     Re: This isn't scientific stuff.NsU Soldier 1/15/13 10:51 a.m.
                                                                                                     Re: This isn't scientific stuff.uberfoop 1/15/13 11:55 a.m.
                                                                                                           Re: This isn't scientific stuff. *LONG*WhoLikesChicken 1/15/13 1:14 p.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: This isn't scientific stuff. *LONG*uberfoop 1/15/13 4:56 p.m.
                                                                                                           Re: This isn't scientific stuff.thebruce0 1/15/13 1:32 p.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: This isn't scientific stuff.Gravemind 1/15/13 2:19 p.m.
                                                                                                                       Re: This isn't scientific stuff.thebruce0 1/16/13 9:59 a.m.
                                                                                                                             Re: This isn't scientific stuff.Gravemind 1/17/13 1:24 p.m.
                                                                                                                                   Re: This isn't scientific stuff.thebruce0 1/18/13 9:36 a.m.
                                                                                                                                         Re: This isn't scientific stuff.General Vagueness 1/18/13 1:25 p.m.
                                                                                                                                               Re: This isn't scientific stuff.thebruce0 1/18/13 2:33 p.m.
                                                                                                                                               Re: This isn't scientific stuff.Gravemind 1/18/13 3:18 p.m.
                                                           Re: This isn't scientific stuff.Gravemind 1/15/13 2:22 p.m.
     A real FFA playlist. Yay!snakegriffin 1/10/13 5:21 p.m.
           This. So much this.LostSpartan987 1/12/13 12:35 p.m.
     Pointless drivel *NM*Captain Spark 1/10/13 5:59 p.m.



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