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Re: ohhh...
Posted By: Forrest of B.orgDate: 12/19/06 9:20 a.m.

In Response To: ohhh... (MrHen)

: I am considering time as a dimension, but I do not think of something as
: holding "volume" in that other dimension. The reason for this is
: because my models of identity begin to break down if I do.

That seems very strange to me then; if something only existed for an infinitesimal instant at one moment in time, then it would be as incorporeal as a true plane or line with no volume.

And yes, I'm aware that we're sorta talking past each other at this point in the conversation, cause in your model these unenduring things "move" from one point in time to another; but I'm about to argue against that.

: This does not happen in my model. Things do not "extend" into the
: past. You can look at the past and say, "that is me," but that
: is not the same you that was there. The same thing happens when you look
: at your physical body. If you take a 2D plane from top to bottom and show
: it to someone, no-one will consider it you. You are not there. Nowhere in
: your body can "you" be found.

: You can replace every single part of your body (which we basically do, if I
: remember correctly) and still be the same person. We have changed, but we
: are still the same identity.

I'm just speaking of identity in the gross common sense. If it helps at all we can talk about rocks instead of people. I can hold up a long rock and point at one end and the other and most people will say that I'm pointing at different parts of the same rock. No piece of that rock is "the rock" - the rock is just an aggregate of things, and if you really want to be strict about it there is no "rock", just a bunch of infinitesimal quarks hanging out together because of their various physical interactions. But when we look at it we can grossly talk about "that rock", with it's particular length, width, and height (which can be different for different parts of the rock); and likewise, in that same gross sense, it makes sense to talk about the duration of the rock, despite the fact that the rock may have been bigger in the past, and included bits of sand that it no longer does. Lets say this rock has a little pointy end and a big round end; they are thus very different things that I point to when I point at the little end versus the big end, but they are still a part of the same rock. Likewise, just because it's different in the past than it is now, presents no problem for it being a part of the same rock.

Tricky identity problems like the Ship at Sea or Star Trek replicator ethics only arise because strictly speaking there is no rock, there is no ship, there are no true objects at all besides the most fundamental particles, whatever they may be; everything else is a roughly approximate term referring to some aggregation of them. But most of the time those rough terms like "rock" and "ship" and such work well enough, and I don't see that we're having trouble identifying one such object from another in our time-travel stories here. I'm not asking anything about when your grandpa ceased to be "your grandpa", i.e. at what point in time the aggregate of matter was sufficiently unaggregated to no longer qualify for identification as that object. That's a completely different question.

: It makes sense to explain you as extending backward roughly twenty-four
: years, but that extension is not necessarily stable or locked in. Just
: like your extensions in the spacial dimensions are constantly changing,
: shifting, moving.

: There are already other dimensions. In fact, we have three of them. Why do
: these not work for moving through time?

: And change happens anyway. Why does your model suddenly "stop"?
: What defines it?

Change is just some variation across some dimension. The rock above "changes" in size between the pointy end and the round end; despite the fact that, us sitting there looking at it, it's not moving or changing at all. If you look at the rock as a 4D object, you can see that it "changes" from the past to the present in exactly the same way; it was bigger back then and then has slowly gotten smaller as bits of it have broken or eroded off. The only difference with the fourth dimension is that "we" observers (whatever the heck an observer, a subject of experiences, is) can only perceive 3D slices of the 4D world, and only in a particular order. That's why I was making the comic-book / movie analogy; each frame of the comic/movie is a static 2D world, but all the frames stacked together make a 3D world, where the 3rd dimension is their "time". But we can only look at a given 2D slice at a time; and in a movie, the order that they are presented to us (in the theater audience) is fixed too.

: That makes sense, but I see movement in time in the same way as I see
: movement in the other three dimensions. You can take a snapshot of any
: point in the graphic novel and notice that nothing is moving. But things
: do move. This is nothing more than Xeno's paradox applied to another
: dimension. This is where Calculus comes in.

I'm not saying "nothing is moving" in the same sense that Xeno was. I don't just mean that each frame of the comic or the movie is still and immobile and so no action is happening; you've got the right answer to Xeno there, but I'm not defending him to begin with. The point I'm making is different: that it's not like one frame is becoming another frame, and changing through (our) time, and after one frame has become the next frame, the old frame no longer exists. All frames exist "simultaneously" to us in 3D space, looking at the comic strip or the film reel; despite the fact that in the 2D world portrayed via those frames, each frame is a different point in time, and to a character in the comic or movie, only the frame that they are in, their present, "exists". But when they refer to the past, we in the 3D world can look back to an earlier frame in the comic, or rewind the movie, and see the past that they're talking about still existing.

(While we're talking about Xeno, yeah technically there would be an infinite number of frames each only infinitesimally different from the next, but you get it for the purposes of the analogy I think).

So, rewinding a bit here (ha ha) to the "change is some variation across an dimension" bit. Movement is change, agreed? A change in position over time. This is why I have trouble making sense of your notion of things moving through time, existing at one point in time and then "later" not existing at that point in time, but at a later point in time. In what sense do you mean "later"?

I hate having to work in analogies so much, but it seems to be our only means of communication. Lets say I'm looking at a number line, and there's a marker on that number line. As I watch it moves from 1, to 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7. Now lets say I'm looking at a graph, where the Y-value "changes" from 1 to 7 in the same fashion, as the X-value increments; a simple line graph. How is that "change" any different than the temporal change? Just call the axis of time "T", and you can imagine a Time God with a four-dimensional view of the world seeing the Y/T "graph" as no different than our Y/X graph.

So I guess the point I'm trying to make it, if something is changing it's position in time, over what dimension is that change occurring? A related question might be "how fast is it changing?" i.e. how many what per what? In our Y/X graph, the change is one Y-unit per X-unit. In our Y/T graph (the moving slider on a number line), the change is, say, one Y-unit per second. But how many seconds per second are we moving through time? Would it make any sense to say anything other than "1"? And is that really a unit of change at all? I mean, if I told you that I was running down the road at a rate of one meter per meter... I might not be moving at all, for all you knew, because it is true in all circumstances that absolutely everything, even things that aren't moving, moves one meter for every meter it moves.

So in order to say that something is moving through space, you have to say that it is moving at some number of meters per second. So if we're moving through time, we've moving some number of seconds per... what? It seems your own notion of movement through time implies some kind of hyper-time, though differently than the hyper-time which may be necessary for time travel in my 4D model (which is not really "my" model, but the standard model of modern physics). I'm not trying to say that hyper-time must really exist because it must exist for us to move through time; I'm saying that the very idea of us "moving" through time (changing our temporal position), when motion is a change in position OVER time, is very strange and doesn't make much sense at all to me.

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Pre-2004 Posts

Replies:

The Garden of Forking PathsDocument 11/29/06 8:50 p.m.
     Re: The Garden of Forking PathsForrest of B.org 11/29/06 10:11 p.m.
     *sniff* Duality *sniff *NM*treellama 11/30/06 2:51 a.m.
     That's not fair.RyokoTK 11/30/06 5:26 a.m.
           Re: That's not fair.McNutcase 11/30/06 5:40 a.m.
                 Re: That's not fair.RyokoTK 11/30/06 8:51 a.m.
                       Re: That's not fair.McNutcase 11/30/06 9:25 a.m.
                             Re: That's not fair.RyokoTK 11/30/06 9:59 a.m.
                                   Re: That's not fair.D-M.A. 11/30/06 10:05 a.m.
                                         Re: That's not fair.RyokoTK 11/30/06 10:22 a.m.
                                               Ahaa, I see what you mean now, point taken. *NM*D-M.A. 11/30/06 10:33 a.m.
                                   define "well"MrHen 11/30/06 10:24 a.m.
                                         Re: define "well"RyokoTK 11/30/06 11:31 a.m.
                                               Re: define "well"Aaron Sikes 11/30/06 12:19 p.m.
                                         Re: define "well"Forrest of B.org 11/30/06 1:26 p.m.
                                               Re: define "well"Aaron Sikes 12/1/06 6:01 a.m.
           Mmm... House of LeavesMrHen 11/30/06 8:00 a.m.
     Re: The Garden of Forking PathsVid Boi 11/30/06 8:13 a.m.
     Re: The Garden of Forking Pathssdwoodchuck 11/30/06 12:39 p.m.
           So, what was your conclusion? *NM*Frungi 11/30/06 3:57 p.m.
                 Re: So, what was your conclusion?sdwoodchuck 11/30/06 6:18 p.m.
                       in your theory, the dreams...MrHen 12/1/06 4:44 a.m.
                             Re: in your theory, the dreams...thermoplyae 12/1/06 6:42 a.m.
                       Re: So, what was your conclusion?Frungi 12/4/06 6:31 p.m.
                             Re: So, what was your conclusion?Forrest of B.org 12/4/06 9:07 p.m.
                                   Time Travel and the Psychology of GodsForrest of B.org 12/4/06 9:25 p.m.
                                         Re: Time Travel and the Psychology of GodsFrungi 12/5/06 8:46 a.m.
                                               Re: Time Travel and the Psychology of GodsForrest of B.org 12/5/06 4:29 p.m.
                                                     heck, I would buy 'emMrHen 12/5/06 6:39 p.m.
                                                     Philosophy anyone?Icarus 12/6/06 8:29 a.m.
                                                           Re: Philosophy anyone?Forrest of B.org 12/6/06 10:46 a.m.
     Re: The Garden of Forking Paths *LINK*Hamish Sinclair 12/2/06 5:06 a.m.
           Re: The Garden of Forking PathsDocument 12/2/06 6:17 p.m.
                 Re: The Garden of Forking PathsDocument 12/4/06 7:03 p.m.
     Official Bungie Canon?Shoeless 12/7/06 7:00 a.m.
           Re: Official Bungie Canon?Bob-B-Q 12/7/06 10:14 a.m.
                 Define "all"MrHen 12/7/06 10:20 a.m.
                       Re: Define "all"Document 12/7/06 4:20 p.m.
                             Re: Define "all"Document 12/7/06 4:21 p.m.
           Re: Official Bungie Canon?Chris Biberstein 12/11/06 10:28 a.m.
                 Re: Official Bungie Canon?Shoeless 12/11/06 12:00 p.m.
                 Re: Official Bungie Canon?Forrest of B.org 12/11/06 12:03 p.m.
                       Re: Official Bungie Canon?MrHen 12/11/06 1:45 p.m.
                             Re: Official Bungie Canon? *LINK*Frungi 12/11/06 3:22 p.m.
                                   uh, thanks...MrHen 12/11/06 6:01 p.m.
                             Re: Official Bungie Canon?Forrest of B.org 12/11/06 9:44 p.m.
                                   I like being confused...MrHen 12/12/06 5:13 a.m.
                                         Re: I like being confused...Forrest of B.org 12/12/06 3:53 p.m.
                                               Re: I like being confused...Frungi 12/12/06 5:51 p.m.
                                                     Re: I like being confused...Forrest of B.org 12/12/06 9:42 p.m.
                                               timelines and their gloryMrHen 12/13/06 5:14 a.m.
                                                     Re: timelines and their gloryForrest of B.org 12/13/06 8:05 a.m.
                                                           Mmm... trippy...MrHen 12/13/06 8:20 a.m.
                                                           Re: timelines and their gloryFrungi 12/13/06 1:43 p.m.
                       Re: Official Bungie Canon?Chris Biberstein 12/12/06 12:37 p.m.
                             Re: Official Bungie Canon?Forrest of B.org 12/12/06 4:02 p.m.
                                   Re: Official Bungie Canon?Chris Biberstein 12/12/06 4:43 p.m.
                                         Re: Official Bungie Canon?Forrest of B.org 12/12/06 9:52 p.m.
                                               Re: Official Bungie Canon?Chris Biberstein 12/13/06 4:17 p.m.
                                                     Re: Official Bungie Canon?Forrest of B.org 12/13/06 6:06 p.m.
                                                           Re: Official Bungie Canon?Chris Biberstein 12/16/06 5:42 p.m.
                                                                 what? why?MrHen 12/16/06 5:47 p.m.
                                                                 Re: Official Bungie Canon?kyjel 12/16/06 6:40 p.m.
                                                                 Re: Official Bungie Canon?Shoeless 12/17/06 4:13 p.m.
                                                                 Re: Official Bungie Canon?Frungi 12/18/06 5:09 p.m.
                                                                       Re: Official Bungie Canon?Chris Biberstein 12/18/06 8:47 p.m.
                                                                             Re: Official Bungie Canon?Frungi 12/18/06 9:22 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: Official Bungie Canon?Chris Biberstein 12/22/06 9:58 a.m.
                                                                                         questions and answersMrHen 12/22/06 12:44 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Official Bungie Canon?Shoeless 12/22/06 1:24 p.m.
                                                                             Re: Official Bungie Canon?Shoeless 12/18/06 10:21 p.m.
                                         rabbit trail, sorry...MrHen 12/13/06 5:23 a.m.
                                               Re: rabbit trail, sorry...Chris Biberstein 12/13/06 4:29 p.m.
                                                     and the problem was... where?MrHen 12/13/06 7:06 p.m.
                                                           Re: and the problem was... where?Forrest of B.org 12/13/06 9:13 p.m.
                                                                 ah, my bad. I understand. :) *NM*MrHen 12/14/06 4:54 a.m.
                                                                       Re: ah, my bad. I understand. :)Forrest of B.org 12/14/06 1:22 p.m.
                                                                             I am the same way. ;)MrHen 12/15/06 5:18 a.m.
                                                                                   Re: I am the same way. ;)Forrest of B.org 12/15/06 7:27 a.m.
                                                                                         BranchingMrHen 12/15/06 9:46 a.m.
                                                                                               Re: BranchingForrest of B.org 12/15/06 11:04 a.m.
                                                                                                     Actually, I think I did understand.MrHen 12/15/06 4:32 p.m.
                                                                                                           Re: Actually, I think I did understand.Forrest of B.org 12/17/06 11:55 a.m.
                                                                                                                 Oh, okay, then we do disagree.MrHen 12/17/06 6:50 p.m.
                                                                                                                       Re: Oh, okay, then we do disagree.Forrest of B.org 12/17/06 10:08 p.m.
                                                                                                                             so where do you get hyper-time?MrHen 12/18/06 5:13 a.m.
                                                                                                                                   Re: so where do you get hyper-time?Forrest of B.org 12/18/06 8:20 a.m.
                                                                                                                                         whoops... no... that is not what I meant.MrHen 12/18/06 9:49 a.m.
                                                                                                                                               Re: whoops... no... that is not what I meant.Forrest of B.org 12/18/06 1:58 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                     right, yeah, that is the identity problemMrHen 12/18/06 4:41 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: right, yeah, that is the identity problemForrest of B.org 12/18/06 9:55 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 ohhh...MrHen 12/19/06 5:44 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: ohhh...Forrest of B.org 12/19/06 9:20 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             back to the math ;)MrHen 12/19/06 11:07 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: back to the math ;)Forrest of B.org 12/19/06 1:36 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                         wait, so my model is too... real? ;)MrHen 12/22/06 1:57 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                               Sort of.Forrest of B.org 12/22/06 3:22 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                     and the light turns on...MrHen 1/7/07 4:41 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: and the light turns on...Forrest of B.org 1/8/07 8:12 p.m.
                                         Re: Official Bungie Canon?Shoeless 12/13/06 8:11 a.m.
                                               Re: Official Bungie Canon?Chris Biberstein 12/13/06 4:34 p.m.
                                                     Re: Official Bungie Canon?Shoeless 12/14/06 8:01 a.m.
                                                     Re: Official Bungie Canon?Frungi 12/15/06 8:02 a.m.
                                                           Re: Official Bungie Canon?Forrest of B.org 12/15/06 8:51 a.m.
                                                                 Re: Official Bungie Canon?Frungi 12/15/06 9:22 a.m.
                                                                 hehe, InfinityMrHen 12/15/06 9:51 a.m.
                                                                       Re: hehe, InfinityForrest of B.org 12/15/06 11:16 a.m.
                                                                             Re: hehe, Infinitytreellama 12/15/06 12:18 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: hehe, InfinityForrest of B.org 12/15/06 1:15 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: hehe, Infinitytreellama 12/15/06 2:09 p.m.
                                                                                               Re: hehe, InfinityForrest of B.org 12/15/06 3:15 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: hehe, Infinitytreellama 12/15/06 4:12 p.m.
                                                                                                           Re: hehe, InfinityFrungi 12/15/06 6:34 p.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: hehe, Infinitytreellama 12/16/06 3:38 a.m.
                                                                                                                       So... do I have this right?MrHen 12/16/06 6:35 a.m.
                                                                                                                             Re: So... do I have this right?treellama 12/16/06 11:25 a.m.
                                                                                         Re: hehe, Infinitytreellama 12/15/06 2:21 p.m.
                                                                 Re: Official Bungie Canon?treellama 12/15/06 9:55 a.m.
                                                                       Re: Official Bungie Canon?McNutcase 12/15/06 11:12 a.m.
                                                                             Re: Official Bungie Canon?Forrest of B.org 12/15/06 1:20 p.m.
                                                           Re: Official Bungie Canon?McNutcase 12/15/06 9:32 a.m.
                                                                 Re: Official Bungie Canon?MrHen 12/15/06 9:49 a.m.
                                                                       Re: Official Bungie Canon?treellama 12/15/06 9:56 a.m.
                                                                       Re: Official Bungie Canon?McNutcase 12/15/06 11:09 a.m.
                                                                       Re: Official Bungie Canon?Forrest of B.org 12/15/06 1:34 p.m.
                                                                             Re: Official Bungie Canon?Forrest of B.org 12/15/06 1:39 p.m.
                                                                 Re: Official Bungie Canon?ukimalefu 12/15/06 6:29 p.m.
                                                                       Re: Official Bungie Canon?McNutcase 12/15/06 10:23 p.m.
                                                                       awesome, thanks! *NM*MrHen 12/16/06 6:49 a.m.
                                                           Re: Official Bungie Canon?Chris Biberstein 12/16/06 5:51 p.m.
                                                                 Re: Official Bungie Canon?kyjel 12/16/06 7:08 p.m.
                                                                       Re: Official Bungie Canon?Chris Biberstein 12/18/06 8:36 p.m.
                                                                             Re: Official Bungie Canon?Frungi 12/18/06 9:48 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: Official Bungie Canon?Chris Biberstein 12/22/06 10:00 a.m.
                                                                                         Re: Official Bungie Canon?Forrest of B.org 12/22/06 10:19 a.m.
                                                                                         what he saidMrHen 12/22/06 12:38 p.m.
                                                                             Re: Official Bungie Canon?Shoeless 12/18/06 10:23 p.m.
                                                                 *sigh*MrHen 12/17/06 5:08 a.m.
                 Re: Official Bungie Canon?Frungi 12/11/06 3:35 p.m.
                       Re: Official Bungie Canon?Chris Biberstein 12/12/06 12:23 p.m.
                             Re: Official Bungie Canon?Shoeless 12/13/06 7:56 a.m.
                                   Re: Official Bungie Canon?Forrest of B.org 12/13/06 8:32 a.m.
                                         another example (albeit overused)MrHen 12/13/06 8:57 a.m.
     Re: The Garden of Forking Paths *LINK*irons 2/23/18 1:11 a.m.
           LOKE *NM*W'rkncacnter 2/23/18 4:06 p.m.
                 Re: LOKE *NM* *LINK*irons 2/23/18 4:14 p.m.
                       LOKE *NM* *NM* *NM* *NM* *NM* *LINK*W'rkncacnter 2/23/18 11:09 p.m.
                             Re: LOKE *NM* *LINK*irons 2/24/18 3:31 a.m.

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