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Re: Durandal and Thoth
Posted By: CharlesSDate: 12/8/01 9:11 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Durandal and Thoth (David Curry)

: Heavy emphasis on "really stretching."

That's the point! I said it right there in the posting. I'm coming up with far-out ideas, to stimulate the imagination. Some of this may or may not be true. Other stuff in here could depend on what the individual decides to believe about it, because there's no real right answer! It's fiction, and there are some parts that there is no definite "this is the truth" answer to things. So we come up with all the ideas we can think of, and throw them in and speculate about them. That's the fun of it!

With that said:

: The difference between the Mac OS and Unix (or the Powerbook virus and the
: alien computer) and Durandal and Thoth is that Durandal and Thoth are
: Artificial _Intelligence_ personality constructs. They have the ability to
: learn and adapt on their own, unlike the other pairings which would need
: to be programmed by a human (or alien in the Independence Day example)
: operator. It's reasonable to assume that Durandal and Thoth actually
: communicated during the merging process and agreed on it, much in the same
: way Durandal came to "an understanding" with the S'pht in M1.

I'm an intelligent being with the ability to learn and adapt on my own. It doesn't mean that I know how to wire my brain to someone else's. Especially in the case of Durandal/Thoth where they are completely different in structure and design. Unless, of course, the same party created them both.

: While it's quite possible that Durandal was developed with Jjaro technology,
: it would only be after several iterations (he came from Traxus IV, which
: may have come from a combination of human and Jjaro technology); the water
: would be so muddied from human involvement it seems unlikely that he would
: have any outward Jjaro characteristics. And I think the first terminal of
: Infinity makes it quite clear that Durandal didn't know about the
: W'rkncacnter until after it was freed.

That's why I said he would not have a clear picture of all Yrro's memories. The bit about an old dream. Same goes for the Marine who might also have some vague memories. Like you said, the water is muddied, so it is all very foggy.

Except for the W'rkncacnter. If you read the manual text, it is very obvious that Durandal knew about that in advance. He even sent a "ridiculous warning" to the Pfhor, telling them what would happen if they set off the early nova.

: This seems unlikely. As I stated earlier, it's pretty clear that Durandal
: (and Leela and Tycho) were offshoots of Traxus IV, which wasn't developed
: until Thoth had been dormant for some time (if he had ever been turned on
: at all, which is questionable because he certainly would have made an
: effort to keep the S'pht clans from going to war as well as keep the Pfhor
: from enslaving the S'pht).

So the Jjaro would build an AI and never, ever turn it on? That seems very unlikely. And anyway, if Yrro was split from Thoth, the humans could have built Traxus, Durandal, Leela, Tycho, et al. from Yrro, no matter how long Thoth had been dormant. There's actually a precedent for this. The S'pht, acting under orders from the Pfhor, used Durandal's pattern to rebuild Tycho, who had been destroyed.

: Except that Strauss was keeping Durandal in check while on the Marathon, and
: by the time he escapes from Tycho's grasp in M2 he is no longer Rampant.

The fact that Strauss kept Durandal in check has nothing to do with the fact that Durandal himself did not have a sense of balance. And how do you figure that Durandal was no longer rampant at the end of M2? He eventually went and named his ship a name that means the hand of God, for crying out loud. He still had the ego problem, and he still wanted to follow through with his crazy plan to escape the universe.

: That may be referring to (Durandal/)Thoth being in contact
: ("whole") with the Jjaro again.

Maybe. But what's the fun in that? And since when does "whole" == "in contact" anyway?

: Remember that Durandal just kept the symbol from the Marathon (which was also
: used by Leela and Tycho, with only the colors changing).

True, but who knows? The humans could have got that symbol from Yrro to begin with. The similarities between the Jjaro symbol and a combination of the Durandal and Thoth icons are just too coincidental for my taste...

: It was said that Yrro was angry when he trapped the W'rkncacnter in the sun.
: When he divided the S'pht into clans it was so that they would have order
: to guide them, and he set them free before fleeing in despair. Doesn't
: sound to me like something an "angry master" would do.

The "angry master" bit is from terminal text in M2.

: I'm pretty sure one of the folks from Bungie said that was the Jjaro symbol.
: Since the merged AI is at least half based on a Jjaro-created AI and has
: (seemingly) been in contact with the Jjaro, it may be that the Jjaro is
: just using the terminal to speak to the marine directly, using the symbol
: of the Jjaro and not specifically the Durandal/Thoth entity.

Could be. But why are the symbols so similar?

: Again, the terminal says that Yrro was in despair when he fled, I doubt he
: was seeking vengeance. More likely he was seeking a nice quiet corner of
: the universe to wallow in misery, but came upon Earth and found the
: W'rkncacnter buried there. Feeling he couldn't shirk his duty, he warned
: Earth and came to permanently seal the W'rkncacnter, perhaps leaving
: behind some technology when he did so (though there are some intriguing
: conversations with the dead in PiD that might imply that the player is
: already influenced by Jjaro technology, but I digress). Assuming he did,
: it would be natural to think that the human scientists would tinker around
: with it, trying either to adapt it to a certain use or improve it. I
: sincerely doubt they would just copy it exactly.

I debated about that when I wrote the original post, whether to make Yrro in despair or anger. Either way works, really. If Yrro is out for vengeance against all W'rkncacnter, that leads him to Earth, but Yrro could have been trying to hide away in despair (maybe even trying to escape the universe!) and just happened to run into the W'rkncacnter around Earth. Both work.

Point taken about the direct copy. I was out of line in saying that. However, a good majority of the tech should still be Jjaro, since we don't understand it well enough to give it a complete overhaul by any estimation.

: Durandal called the Pfhor to take their ship (and all the cool new toys
: thereon). Recognizing that the S'pht were the ones controlling the Pfhor
: ship, he naturally played against their desire for freedom in order to
: commandeer the ship for his own purpose (escaping the closure of the
: universe). My guess is he first goes poking around Lh'owon either for more
: info/technology to aid him in his goal, or he discovers that Tycho has
: aligned himself with the Pfhor (a bit of info he shares with the marine
: early in M2) and wants to find a weapon to use against Tycho. After all,
: we can't have too many meta-stable personality constructs galivanting
: about the universe in Pfhor attack ships, can we?

Sure, maybe Durandal thought he was doing it for these motivations, but there could have been a subconscious directive running. Durandal had very little reason to go to Lh'owon other than that the S'pht wanted him to.

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Pre-2004 Posts

Replies:

Volunteers: Bagged AgainMark Levin 12/3/01 11:01 a.m.
     Re: Volunteers: Bagged AgainTycho7en 12/3/01 2:47 p.m.
           Re: Volunteers: Bagged AgainDavid Curry 12/4/01 9:50 a.m.
                 Re: Volunteers: Bagged Again[Tycho?] 12/4/01 11:34 a.m.
                       Re: Volunteers: Bagged AgainMark Levin 12/4/01 1:00 p.m.
                       Re: Volunteers: Bagged AgainAhruman 12/5/01 9:49 a.m.
                             Re: Volunteers: Bagged AgainTru7h 12/5/01 12:48 p.m.
                 Re: Volunteers: Bagged AgainDan Aris 12/4/01 11:57 a.m.
     Re: Volunteers: Bagged AgainDavid Curry 12/4/01 10:02 a.m.
           Re: Volunteers: Bagged AgainMark Levin 12/4/01 10:21 a.m.
                 Re: Volunteers: Bagged AgainSiliconDream =PN= 12/8/01 3:12 a.m.
                       Re: Volunteers: Bagged Againarchon 12/8/01 10:28 a.m.
                       Re: Volunteers: Bagged AgainDavid Curry 12/8/01 2:24 p.m.
                             Re: Durandal and ThothCharlesS 12/8/01 5:00 p.m.
                                   Re: Durandal and ThothDavid Curry 12/8/01 6:44 p.m.
                                         Re: Durandal and ThothCharlesS 12/8/01 9:11 p.m.
                                               Re: Durandal and ThothShnu 12/10/01 7:58 p.m.
                             Re: Volunteers: Bagged AgainSiliconDream =PN= 12/8/01 9:47 p.m.
                                   "Bagged Again," againCallie21V 12/10/01 11:01 a.m.
                                         Re: "Bagged Again," againMark Levin 12/10/01 11:08 a.m.
                                               Re: "Bagged Again," againSiliconDream =PN= 12/10/01 4:01 p.m.
                                                     Re: "Bagged Again," againMark Levin 12/10/01 5:26 p.m.
                                                           Re: "Bagged Again," againSiliconDream =PN= 12/10/01 6:33 p.m.
                                                                 Re: "Bagged Again," againCharlesS 12/11/01 12:06 a.m.
                                                                       Re: "Bagged Again," againSiliconDream =PN= 12/11/01 2:06 a.m.
                                                                             Re: "Bagged Again," againHamish Sinclair 12/11/01 3:04 a.m.
                                                                                   Re: "Bagged Again," againSiliconDream =PN= 12/11/01 11:42 a.m.



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