Re: Marathon on the Doom engine


	/-/S'pht-Translator-Active/-/

Re: Marathon on the Doom engine

Posted By: VonZwietracht Date: 4/14/25 2:43 p.m.
In Response To: Re: Marathon on the Doom engine (Lion O Cyborg)

: Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Even in Aleph One which removed the 1024
: sectors limitation, it's still too fucking small going by the grid size
: in Weland's Draw Mode. I was hoping the drawing space would be expanded to
: Microsoft Excel size to allow for more complex levels & justify fixing
: the sector limit but no.
: I think the WADs (for want of a better name for the map file than scenario or
: SceA) that take advantage of the comparative polygonal freedom to
: Forge/Vulcan 2 like Eternal and Rubicon only do so by exploiting 5D space
: a lot.
: Is the Doom map size the GZ Doom one or the vanilla id tech 1 limit from the
: DOS era?
That's the vanilla size limit, but GZDoom still has the same size limit; I'm unsure of any doom sourceports that remove it.
Note that I was in error in my previous post. Doom's grid goes up to 65535, but no two points on the map can be further than 32767 units apart. Still a pretty big area, though lol.
Note also that in doom, especially in more modern engines, a lot of neat tricks need "dummy sectors" that get made outside of the play area, so for certain things, you may end up needing more grid space in order to build stuff like this out. Hexen/UDMF polyobjects, classic 3D bridges, and all of the rigamarole people do with voodoo dolls comes to mind here.
IdTech1 had significantly more limits that most modern ports do, though (other than explicitly vanilla-imitating like Chocolate). https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Static_limits
I think the most common one you'd find if you're mapping like a normal person is the visplane limit. Vanilla could only display 128 distinct ceiling/floors at a time from any vantage point, or else it crashes out. Kinda annoying too, since it's not really an obvious error that you can see without playtesting, since whether you trigger it or not depends on whether you're standing in the specific spot that such a number of visplanes is visible from. Easy to fix, though: just obstruct the view of the ceiling such that fewer visplanes are visible.
A super big/complex map in vanilla could probably start bumping up against vanilla Doom's RAM allocation limit, and there's other limits too that would feasibly do it. Like I think NUTS.wad (it's just a big room with a ridiculous number of enemies in it if you're unfamiliar) crosses over the max visible spite limit and thus needs limit removal. Maps that are ridiculous like this usually weren't very playable until the mid to late 2010s, though, simply because they lagged significantly, even if you did have a limit removing engine.
On the note of sector/poly limits: I don't really think of that in terms of size, but detail. Like think about in Ne Cede Malis in MInf. The walls of that long corridor up the the first terminal have this detailing to them where there's like lights inset into mechanical stuff. In order to accomplish that, the walls consume extra polys just to let that light be recessed. It ups the poly count, but man it looks nice. Ne Cede Malis' walls carry oven even into how I make maps in doom often lol.

[ Post a Reply | Message Index | Read Prev Msg | Read Next Msg ]
Pre-2004 Posts

Replies:

Marathon on the Doom engine Lion O Cyborg 4/20/22 12:44 p.m.

Re: Marathon on the Doom engine anonymousthonner 4/21/22 5:38 a.m.

Re: Marathon on the Doom engine Lion O Cyborg 4/21/22 2:00 p.m.

Re: Marathon on the Doom engine anonymousthonner 4/22/22 3:16 p.m.

Re: Marathon on the Doom engine Lion O Cyborg 4/23/22 5:42 a.m.

Re: Marathon on the Doom engine VonZwietracht 4/7/25 7:04 p.m.

Holy necropost, batman! VikingBoyBilly 4/8/25 7:52 a.m.

Re: Holy necropost, batman! VonZwietracht 4/8/25 9:47 a.m.

Re: Holy necropost, batman! VikingBoyBilly 4/8/25 3:56 p.m.

Re: Holy necropost, batman! Lion O Cyborg 4/13/25 10:50 a.m.

Re: Marathon on the Doom engine President People 4/8/25 4:32 p.m.

Re: Marathon on the Doom engine VonZwietracht 4/9/25 7:02 a.m.

Re: Marathon on the Doom engine VikingBoyBilly 4/9/25 10:00 a.m.

Re: Marathon on the Doom engine VonZwietracht 4/9/25 4:36 p.m.

Re: Marathon on the Doom engine VikingBoyBilly 4/9/25 9:58 a.m.

Re: Marathon on the Doom engine Lion O Cyborg 4/13/25 10:45 a.m.

Re: Marathon on the Doom engine VonZwietracht 4/14/25 5:49 a.m.

Re: Marathon on the Doom engine Lion O Cyborg 4/14/25 1:12 p.m.

Re: Marathon on the Doom engine VonZwietracht 4/14/25 2:43 p.m.

Re: Marathon on the Doom engine Lion O Cyborg 4/22/25 9:33 a.m.

[ Post a Reply | Message Index | Read Prev Msg | Read Next Msg ]
Pre-2004 Posts

Your Name:
Your E-Mail Address:
Subject:
Message:
: That's the vanilla size limit, but GZDoom still has the same size limit; I'm : unsure of any doom sourceports that remove it. : Note that I was in error in my previous post. Doom's grid goes up to 65535, : but no two points on the map can be further than 32767 units apart. Still : a pretty big area, though lol. : Note also that in doom, especially in more modern engines, a lot of neat : tricks need "dummy sectors" that get made outside of the play : area, so for certain things, you may end up needing more grid space in : order to build stuff like this out. Hexen/UDMF polyobjects, classic 3D : bridges, and all of the rigamarole people do with voodoo dolls comes to : mind here. : IdTech1 had significantly more limits that most modern ports do, though : (other than explicitly vanilla-imitating like Chocolate). : https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Static_limits : I think the most common one you'd find if you're mapping like a normal person : is the visplane limit. Vanilla could only display 128 distinct : ceiling/floors at a time from any vantage point, or else it crashes out. : Kinda annoying too, since it's not really an obvious error that you can : see without playtesting, since whether you trigger it or not depends on : whether you're standing in the specific spot that such a number of : visplanes is visible from. Easy to fix, though: just obstruct the view of : the ceiling such that fewer visplanes are visible. : A super big/complex map in vanilla could probably start bumping up against : vanilla Doom's RAM allocation limit, and there's other limits too that : would feasibly do it. Like I think NUTS.wad (it's just a big room with a : ridiculous number of enemies in it if you're unfamiliar) crosses over the : max visible spite limit and thus needs limit removal. Maps that are : ridiculous like this usually weren't very playable until the mid to late : 2010s, though, simply because they lagged significantly, even if you did : have a limit removing engine. : On the note of sector/poly limits: I don't really think of that in terms of : size, but detail. Like think about in Ne Cede Malis in MInf. The walls of : that long corridor up the the first terminal have this detailing to them : where there's like lights inset into mechanical stuff. In order to : accomplish that, the walls consume extra polys just to let that light be : recessed. It ups the poly count, but man it looks nice. Ne Cede Malis' : walls carry oven even into how I make maps in doom often lol.

If you'd like to include a link to another page with your message,
please provide both the URL address and the title of the page:
Optional Link URL:
Optional Link Title:

If necessary, enter your password below:
Password:

Problems? Suggestions? Comments? Email maintainer@bungie.org
Marathon's Story Forum is maintained with WebBBS 5.12.

Marathon on the Doom engine	Lion O Cyborg	4/20/22 12:44 p.m.
Re: Marathon on the Doom engine	anonymousthonner	4/21/22 5:38 a.m.
Re: Marathon on the Doom engine	Lion O Cyborg	4/21/22 2:00 p.m.
Re: Marathon on the Doom engine	anonymousthonner	4/22/22 3:16 p.m.
Re: Marathon on the Doom engine	Lion O Cyborg	4/23/22 5:42 a.m.
Re: Marathon on the Doom engine	VonZwietracht	4/7/25 7:04 p.m.
Holy necropost, batman!	VikingBoyBilly	4/8/25 7:52 a.m.
Re: Holy necropost, batman!	VonZwietracht	4/8/25 9:47 a.m.
Re: Holy necropost, batman!	VikingBoyBilly	4/8/25 3:56 p.m.
Re: Holy necropost, batman!	Lion O Cyborg	4/13/25 10:50 a.m.
Re: Marathon on the Doom engine	President People	4/8/25 4:32 p.m.
Re: Marathon on the Doom engine	VonZwietracht	4/9/25 7:02 a.m.
Re: Marathon on the Doom engine	VikingBoyBilly	4/9/25 10:00 a.m.
Re: Marathon on the Doom engine	VonZwietracht	4/9/25 4:36 p.m.
Re: Marathon on the Doom engine	VikingBoyBilly	4/9/25 9:58 a.m.
Re: Marathon on the Doom engine	Lion O Cyborg	4/13/25 10:45 a.m.
Re: Marathon on the Doom engine	VonZwietracht	4/14/25 5:49 a.m.
Re: Marathon on the Doom engine	Lion O Cyborg	4/14/25 1:12 p.m.
Re: Marathon on the Doom engine	VonZwietracht	4/14/25 2:43 p.m.
Re: Marathon on the Doom engine	Lion O Cyborg	4/22/25 9:33 a.m.



	Your Name:
	Your E-Mail Address:
	Subject:
	Message: : That's the vanilla size limit, but GZDoom still has the same size limit; I'm : unsure of any doom sourceports that remove it. : Note that I was in error in my previous post. Doom's grid goes up to 65535, : but no two points on the map can be further than 32767 units apart. Still : a pretty big area, though lol. : Note also that in doom, especially in more modern engines, a lot of neat : tricks need "dummy sectors" that get made outside of the play : area, so for certain things, you may end up needing more grid space in : order to build stuff like this out. Hexen/UDMF polyobjects, classic 3D : bridges, and all of the rigamarole people do with voodoo dolls comes to : mind here. : IdTech1 had significantly more limits that most modern ports do, though : (other than explicitly vanilla-imitating like Chocolate). : https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Static_limits : I think the most common one you'd find if you're mapping like a normal person : is the visplane limit. Vanilla could only display 128 distinct : ceiling/floors at a time from any vantage point, or else it crashes out. : Kinda annoying too, since it's not really an obvious error that you can : see without playtesting, since whether you trigger it or not depends on : whether you're standing in the specific spot that such a number of : visplanes is visible from. Easy to fix, though: just obstruct the view of : the ceiling such that fewer visplanes are visible. : A super big/complex map in vanilla could probably start bumping up against : vanilla Doom's RAM allocation limit, and there's other limits too that : would feasibly do it. Like I think NUTS.wad (it's just a big room with a : ridiculous number of enemies in it if you're unfamiliar) crosses over the : max visible spite limit and thus needs limit removal. Maps that are : ridiculous like this usually weren't very playable until the mid to late : 2010s, though, simply because they lagged significantly, even if you did : have a limit removing engine. : On the note of sector/poly limits: I don't really think of that in terms of : size, but detail. Like think about in Ne Cede Malis in MInf. The walls of : that long corridor up the the first terminal have this detailing to them : where there's like lights inset into mechanical stuff. In order to : accomplish that, the walls consume extra polys just to let that light be : recessed. It ups the poly count, but man it looks nice. Ne Cede Malis' : walls carry oven even into how I make maps in doom often lol.
	If you'd like to include a link to another page with your message, please provide both the URL address and the title of the page:
	Optional Link URL:
	Optional Link Title:
	If necessary, enter your password below:
	Password: