Re: Are there even timelines at all?
Posted By: Durandal_1707Date: 1/4/21 7:26 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Are there even timelines at all? (Philtron)

: There is nothing to indicate that the purpose of Strange Aeons is to merge
: AIs except that you happen to merge AIs there

Well I mean, we don't know that it's the only thing it can do, but it's definitely a thing it can do, since we can do it. As far as the plot goes, that's, quite obviously, its purpose.

: combined with your own fanciful thinking.

Here you go again with the condescension. If you'd knock that off, I think you'd find you'd get a lot less pushback on your theories.

: That doesn't mean it can't be, but there's nothing
: indicating that it is (especially when there is a much clearer
: explanation). There's no reference to the Jjaro ever merging AI

Yrro and Pthia in M2. Durandal and Thoth in this game.

: nor that they had technology capable of this.

We use the technology capable of this in the game.

: There is nothing in the actual Text
: of the game that suggests this. No, the path leading up to the chip insert
: does not suggest this, it only suggests that that room is designed for
: uploading large amounts of data.

: The cores are designed to look exactly like the cores in M2, so clearly we
: are meant to interpret these as Thoth's cores. This is the simplest and
: most straightforward explanation for what that place is.

Thoth is software. There is no "Thoth's Core." The things we turn on are simply old S'pht computers. Of course they look similar to the ones that originally contained Thoth's software. The same people built them.

Also, Thoth is already active by the time we go to Strange Aeons. Thoth sends us messages on the previous level. Thoth beams us into the place, for cripes' sake.

: And no, the main character does not find a thousand year old (or whatever
: age) uplink chip floating in the water. Your attempt to force a diegetic
: reason for a chip to be there doesn't make sense and actually contradicts
: itself.

I find it somewhat amusing how you use details of the map design as evidence for your theory, and then in the very next breath claim that a different detail of the map design is non-diagetic just because you want it to be.

Anyway, I can't remember if the chip is set to beam in on the map, but regardless of whether Thoth beamed it there before you arrived or afterward, it's not hard to figure out how it got there.

If DA wanted to work around the engine to make it as if you'd always been carrying the upload chip, they could just put the chip at the exact place the player starts.

: If the new uplink chip is S'pht/Jjaro and we need it to connect with the
: cores in Strange Aeons due to its interface, then connecting Durandal's
: primal pattern with this chip would face the same problems with connecting
: directly with the cores: the interface of the Jjaro chip would be
: different than Durandal's ship. And if Durandal's primal pattern could
: just be downloaded from the main character's brain into the Jjaro chip,
: then it could also just be downloaded directly to the Jjaro cores.

Yes, that's why when I want to transfer data from my cell phone to my computer, I simply mash the phone straight into the computer's USB port instead of using a cable or a MicroSD card or something.

Yeah, if the human builders had had a particularly incredible leap of foresight, they could have built a Bluetooth or Wi-Fi connection into the battleroid brain, but these weren't even a "thing" yet in the 90s when this game was made. At the time, the way people, including the game devs, were familiar with passing software around was typically via media like CDs and floppy disks.

: So, no, the main character does not pick up a microchip on Hang Brain and
: hide it in his underpants until Strange Aeons where he happens to find a
: thousand year old Jjaro chip which magically connects to the chip with
: Durandal's brain. The chips are clearly there for the reasons of game
: mechanics and representing how the main character contains Durandal's
: pattern in his own brain.

Who said anything about keeping the chip from Hang Brain? That chip is used to transfer Durandal's pattern into the player's brain. That chip is then confiscated, but it's served its purpose. The other chip on Strange Aeons then does the same thing, in the other direction, interfacing with the S'pht computer.

: The only diegetic explanation that would make sense is that the main
: character picks up an actual chip on Durandal's core, stores Durandal's
: neural net in his brain as well for some reason, the chip gets confiscated
: by the Pfhor, which happens to be given to a Pfhor scouting team in Son of
: Grendel, that Pfhor team drops the chip in Strange Aeons when they're
: killed, which is where the main character finds it again.

Already handled this one.

: However, even that explanation is weak due to the fact that the main
: character has everything he needs to resurrect Durandal in his own mind.
: No chip is actually necessary to accomplish what is happening. If the
: interface would be a problem then it should also be a problem with a
: thousand year old Jjaro chip.

The giant building-sized computer is probably just a tad awkward to mash into the player's brain...

: We definitely shouldn't interpret the map design as hyper literal.

: However, the location of Thoth's cores is not the "nitty-gritty" of
: the map layouts. Their locations aren't slightly off or redesigned,
: they're in completely different geographical and narrative locations from
: each other (except maybe the one underwater in Chapter 1, but I'm too
: tired to check if there's a corresponding location in M2). It's not
: nitpicking to point this out, this is a major element of what's going on
: with them.

: If you're going to cite things to disagree with someone then at least look up
: the context for how they occur.

Look up what? It's a plot to a video game that everyone on this board has played like a billion times.

: Here is everything that Durandal says, from various terminals regarding this:
: "You must hurry. The Pfhor fleet is close
: enough that I can identify its flagship as
: the battleship Khfiva. If the Khfiva is
: still admiral Tfear's vessel then there is no
: chance that I can best him in the coming
: battle.


: ... more terminal text that we've all read ...

: So, while Durandal is trapped in Lh'owon orbit, refusing to move to a better
: tactical position because he wants information,

Where did you get that? There's no reason Durandal has to stay in one place while the player is running around as long as he comes by to pick him up once he's done.

: he is attacked by an
: organized and prepared Admiral Tfear (aided by Tycho) who see Durandal
: from AUs away...

: And he smashes them so badly that he destroys half their fleet in a battle
: that could be considered a humbling of them . You could take that last
: bit as Durandal just being arrogant, but unless you think he's lying about
: how many ships he destroyed then this was an astounding feat. He barely
: lost and that was while being at a tactical disadvantage and while his
: enemies were being directly aided by an AI that is part Durandal itself.

And in all the versions of the battle we get any kind of detail on in Infinity, where the situation is different, Durandal loses every time.

: However in Ne Cede Malis, Durandal has not explored Lh'owon and so he's not
: trapped in Lh'owon orbit, Tycho isn't with Tfear's fleet to help them,

What? Where did you get that? According to the terminal, Tycho was there, trying to talk Tfear out of using the star buster, and he's still in the area immediately following the battle.

: and it seems Durandal may have ambushed Tfear (the way Tfear ambushed Durandal
: in the manual chapter) as Battle Group Seven entered the system.

As you're so fond of saying, there's nothing in the text to suggest that.

: If Durandal could destroy half the fleet while he was at a disadvantage in
: M2, then it's reasonable that he could defeat the fleet entirely (or
: enough that they'd launch the trih xeem) if he engaged them on his own
: terms.

That's a huge stretch. Durandal may be a great tactician, but one scoutship vs. a massive elite battlefleet is still a really lopsided battle.

: This is a very narrow view of Durandal that doesn't match a Close Reading of
: the character.

Why do you keep randomly capitalizing words like that?

: Durandal acknowledging the presence of the S'pht'kr would
: not be out of character for him. A Close Reading of Durandal at the end of
: M2 shows that he is actually proud of the S'pht'kr arriving precisely
: because of his arrogance: He sees the arrival of the S'pht'kr as his own
: accomplishment . Durandal has no reason not to mention the presence of the
: S'pht'kr in the battle because he sees their arrival as part of his own
: tactical brilliance, his own triumph. "Once again we are
: triumphant."

The Ne Cede Malis terminal is just one terminal, and it's not the beginning and end of the events leading to this timeline. If the "Durandan, Durandal, Durandana" terminal was the one entry point we had into M2's timeline, you'd determine that the S'pht weren't present there either, by this logic.

Durandal's main interest in the S'pht is in feeding his messiah complex. In this catastrophic failure of his ambitions, they're not going to be on the top of his mind.

: The specifics aren't stated but from what we see in-game, the most reasonable
: thing to interpret is that Durandal defeated battle group seven (for the
: reasons I mentioned above) on his own due to arbitrarily different
: decisions he makes in this timeline.

: Also, let's be clear. The main character does not control or influence the
: behaviors or actions of other characters in the game. The main character
: would not be able to force Durandal to do things differently.

Who says any such forcing is necessary? If the player just communicates the information that Durandal is looking for, Durandal suddenly has no need to look for that information.

The player may be a silent protagonist during the actual games, but the manual texts make it perfectly clear that the PC does, in fact, possess the ability to speak.

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Pre-2004 Posts


Infinity: the Story: Chapt 2, Part 1/2Philtron 12/16/20 2:21 p.m.
     Re: Infinity: the Story: Chapt 2, Part 1/2Philtron 12/16/20 6:45 p.m.
     Re: Infinity: the Story: Chapt 2, Part 1/2Godot 12/16/20 11:33 p.m.
           Re: Infinity: the Story: Chapt 2, Part 1/2Philtron 12/17/20 3:38 p.m.
     Re: Infinity: the Story: Chapt 2, Part 1/2HamburgerBoy 1/2/21 8:26 p.m.
           Are there even timelines at all?Durandal_1707 1/2/21 11:07 p.m.
                 Re: Are there even timelines at all?General-RADIX 1/2/21 11:54 p.m.
                       Re: Are there even timelines at all?Durandal_1707 1/3/21 6:41 a.m.
                             Re: Are there even timelines at all?Godot 1/3/21 7:39 a.m.
                 Re: Are there even timelines at all?Philtron 1/3/21 12:02 p.m.
                       Re: Are there even timelines at all?Forrest of B.org 1/4/21 1:01 a.m.
                             Re: Are there even timelines at all?Durandal_1707 1/4/21 7:27 a.m.
                                   Re: map layoutsDocument 1/4/21 9:22 a.m.
                                         Re: map layoutsVikingBoyBilly 1/4/21 10:15 a.m.
                                   Re: Are there even timelines at all?Philtron 1/4/21 4:15 p.m.
                                         Re: Are there even timelines at all?Durandal_1707 1/4/21 7:26 p.m.
                                               Re: Are there even timelines at all?General-RADIX 1/5/21 6:13 a.m.
                                                     Re: Are there even timelines at all?Philtron 1/5/21 5:17 p.m.
                                               Re: Are there even timelines at all?Philtron 1/5/21 5:12 p.m.
                                               Re: Are there even timelines at all?VikingBoyBilly 1/6/21 8:05 a.m.
                                         Re: Are there even timelines at all?VikingBoyBilly 1/5/21 5:48 a.m.
                                               Re: Are there even timelines at all?Philtron 1/5/21 5:25 p.m.
                                                     Re: Are there even timelines at all?VikingBoyBilly 1/6/21 8:42 a.m.
                                                           Re: Are there even timelines at all?Forrest of B.org 1/6/21 9:59 p.m.
                                                                 Re: Are there even timelines at all?Godot 1/8/21 5:21 a.m.

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Pre-2004 Posts



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