Re: Brutal Marathon?! Sign me up!


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Re: Brutal Marathon?! Sign me up!

Posted By: Lion O Cyborg Date: 8/17/20 3:12 a.m.
In Response To: Re: Brutal Marathon?! Sign me up! (General-RADIX)

: Viscerafest the game looks cool, but as for a true "Brutal
: Marathon"...to be honest, I...don't really care for the idea, myself.
: Marathon is moody and contemplative, and trying to make a 1:1 equivalent to
: Brutal Doom with it would just make it feel like any other FPS. My
: personal ideal course of action would be to draw from games like DreamWeb
: and the more mature adventure games from the mid '90s.
Probably. There's also the original System Shock (minus the PID style interface) that could tie into those latter game ideas, though that's a metroidvania as opposed to an adventure game. There's also Hedon, whose level quests reminded me of Marathon a little, such as following "terminals" (paper logs and books in this game) to create a potion needed to remove a locking spell on a door, or a big foundry level where you run around trying to forge something for a puzzle. There was even logs and a hidden map to lead the player to a secret backpack in one of the outdoor areas that was a little too hidden in my opinion.
For ideas of actual graphic adventure games to crib from, I'd suggest Fran Bow, Rama and maybe even Blade Runner or A New Beginning.
You're right as a "Brutal Marathon" (it's more a placeholder name than anything) would need something unique like those adventure game draws, in order to fit Marathon's tone and mood. If it was just "Brutal Doom Marathon Edition" like I implied that wouldn't be good:
There's already at least two examples of games where they just make it bloodier, add a quick kick, slap "brutal" onto the title and call it a day like Brutal Half Life does. That's boring, especially as Half Life like Marathon is not about simply killing lots of nasty dudes.
For examples of "brutal" mods doing their own thing; DN3D Alien Armageddon tells itself apart from Brutal Doom by having Bombshell from Ion Maiden (her DNF 2001 look) follow Duke around with the option to switch between the two with unique weapon counterparts for Shelly, Sonic Heroes style. It also adds a brand new episode 5 to showcase things better as well as the expansion packs (except Nuclear Winter).
Quake 1.5 tells itself apart by reworking some of the levels in interesting ways, adds new secret levels like a metro train one reached from the Dismal Oubliette, gives all episodes proper boss fights at the end and makes Shub Niggurath not suck anymore.
Both of the above also add new monsters such as the Big Foot & Hot Shot enforcers, DNF "Major" octobrains and terminators in DN3D AA, or Arcane Dimensions monsters in Quake 1.5. I'll embed videos covering them each at the end of the post for better context.
Marathon's counterpart to those would need something unique to tell it apart from all of them without making it like all the others as you say. New monsters and weapons could certainly a part of that, but like DN3D & Quake 1.5 this ain't Doom: it's way better than it so it needs something to stand out from the others.
For example, adjusting the satellite in G4 Sunbathing could be more than just hitting the switches. Maybe Marcus could hit the switches to power it up, but then he has to angle it in the general direction of sol in order to make it work. There would need to be a marker on the dish stand for guidance in case the sprite rotates to face the wrong way as you walk round it. I'm not sure how one would go about it though, as I don't think Aleph One supports rotating or moving polygons yet.
New monsters could include the cut Pfhor "dogs" in Marathon 1, Pfhor civilians/janitors on the ships, the S'pht cordyceps "Flood" zombies in Marathon 2+3 (Infinity) plus PID or Eternal 1.2 PID style monsters in Infinity during levels where the W'rk is free or about to break out. They can also appear in the Vidmaster challenge maps.
Aye Mak Sicur would need a final boss as well as the vanilla map was a massive anti-climax. I guess it could do the PID thing and have a semi-awake avatar of the W'rk stalk and/or fight the player as they navigate the station with making it vanish being a goal. It would have to take more hits and do more than just send monster waves after you, as PID's final boss was a little weak in that regard.
That or instead the final boss could be Admiral Tfear (with unique sprites and AI) and the PID esque W'rk fight could instead be an "extra boss"/True Final Boss you fight if you take the vidmaster's challenge, replacing the Pfhor in that version of YTYBT.
More crew logs like Redux does, especially in Infinity's bad future levels. Other Pfhor slave races besides the S'pht in the later two games could appear as well, though they may have to stay on space stations and Pfhor ships since Lh'owon might be uninhabitable for them, especially for Dinniol.
New weapons and/or weapon tweaks could include the cordyceps weapon cut from Marathon 2, which would make any hostile you zombify with it into friendlies. It doesn't work on Bobs as the virus is too alien for human DNA. (cribbing from the second or third Space Odyssey book here)
A Wave Motion Cannon in Marathon 1 could appear in a new "Ultimate Marathon" scenario as an interequel between it and Marathon 2.
PID's Isfet Crystals could appear in Infinity as a reward for taking the failure levels, hidden in said maps themselves. You'd need all 6 emeralds in order to beat the W'rkncacnter avatar at the end of the Vidmaster challenge. (perhaps the Aye Mak Sicur secret exit could be gated off unless the player has them all so the player doesn't get themselves stuck by taking it without all the crystakls they need)
The chaingun from Marathon Evil with some buffs and unique ammo could also serve as the "BFG" of the main Marathon games instead of the overpowered WMC.
Grenade climbing and flamethrower jetpacking from M1 Classic would also need to be in the other two games as well, since i never liked their nerfing in those.
Besides an interequel between M1 & M2 (inspired by the cut one), we could also get one for between M2 & MI to explain how we ended up on the station in the prologue to begin with. New levels in the games themselves could be implementing the original idea for Naw Man He's Close (which became the plan for the cut Covenant Ship level in Halo 2) complete with the huge space skydiving sequence.
After landing on Boomer, you'd fight along the hull and up the tower to reach the hull breach into the ship, at which point the actual Naw Man He's Close map would load, but with partial vacuum like Eternal 1.2 and Redux have. (Same with Foe Hammer)
The space jump and tower map could be called "What If You Miss?" If there's space on the Weland grid, there could be map writing on this level that makes another Halo 2 joke: "For a brick, he flew pretty good!"
Sorry if this post is getting rather long. Just thought I'd clarify what I meant a little better, suggest some way of going about such a feat if it ever came to pass, and add to your ideas of where it could draw ideas from.
Anyhoo, here's the videos of the "brutal mod" examples above as promised to help explain their particular unique points over Brutal Doom better than I can:

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Brutal Marathon?! Sign me up! Lion O Cyborg 8/16/20 1:36 p.m.

Re: Brutal Marathon?! Sign me up! General-RADIX 8/16/20 3:23 p.m.

Re: Brutal Marathon?! Sign me up! Lion O Cyborg 8/17/20 3:12 a.m.

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Pre-2004 Posts

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: Probably. There's also the original System Shock (minus the PID style : interface) that could tie into those latter game ideas, though that's a : metroidvania as opposed to an adventure game. There's also Hedon, whose : level quests reminded me of Marathon a little, such as following : "terminals" (paper logs and books in this game) to create a : potion needed to remove a locking spell on a door, or a big foundry level : where you run around trying to forge something for a puzzle. There was : even logs and a hidden map to lead the player to a secret backpack in one : of the outdoor areas that was a little too hidden in my opinion. : For ideas of actual graphic adventure games to crib from, I'd suggest Fran : Bow, Rama and maybe even Blade Runner or A New Beginning. : You're right as a "Brutal Marathon" (it's more a placeholder name : than anything) would need something unique like those adventure game : draws, in order to fit Marathon's tone and mood. If it was just : "Brutal Doom Marathon Edition" like I implied that wouldn't be : good: There's already at least two examples of games where they just make : it bloodier, add a quick kick, slap "brutal" onto the title and : call it a day like Brutal Half Life does. That's boring, especially as : Half Life like Marathon is not about simply killing lots of nasty dudes. : For examples of "brutal" mods doing their own thing; DN3D Alien : Armageddon tells itself apart from Brutal Doom by having Bombshell from : Ion Maiden (her DNF 2001 look) follow Duke around with the option to : switch between the two with unique weapon counterparts for Shelly, Sonic : Heroes style. It also adds a brand new episode 5 to showcase things better : as well as the expansion packs (except Nuclear Winter). : Quake 1.5 tells itself apart by reworking some of the levels in interesting : ways, adds new secret levels like a metro train one reached from the : Dismal Oubliette, gives all episodes proper boss fights at the end and : makes Shub Niggurath not suck anymore. : Both of the above also add new monsters such as the Big Foot & Hot Shot : enforcers, DNF "Major" octobrains and terminators in DN3D AA, or : Arcane Dimensions monsters in Quake 1.5. I'll embed videos covering them : each at the end of the post for better context. : Marathon's counterpart to those would need something unique to tell it apart : from all of them without making it like all the others as you say. New : monsters and weapons could certainly a part of that, but like DN3D & : Quake 1.5 this ain't Doom: it's way better than it so it needs something : to stand out from the others. : For example, adjusting the satellite in G4 Sunbathing could be more than just : hitting the switches. Maybe Marcus could hit the switches to power it up, : but then he has to angle it in the general direction of sol in order to : make it work. There would need to be a marker on the dish stand for : guidance in case the sprite rotates to face the wrong way as you walk : round it. I'm not sure how one would go about it though, as I don't think : Aleph One supports rotating or moving polygons yet. : New monsters could include the cut Pfhor "dogs" in Marathon 1, : Pfhor civilians/janitors on the ships, the S'pht cordyceps : "Flood" zombies in Marathon 2+3 (Infinity) plus PID or Eternal : 1.2 PID style monsters in Infinity during levels where the W'rk is free or : about to break out. They can also appear in the Vidmaster challenge maps. : Aye Mak Sicur would need a final boss as well as the vanilla map was a : massive anti-climax. I guess it could do the PID thing and have a : semi-awake avatar of the W'rk stalk and/or fight the player as they : navigate the station with making it vanish being a goal. It would have to : take more hits and do more than just send monster waves after you, as : PID's final boss was a little weak in that regard. : That or instead the final boss could be Admiral Tfear (with unique sprites : and AI) and the PID esque W'rk fight could instead be an "extra : boss"/True Final Boss you fight if you take the vidmaster's : challenge, replacing the Pfhor in that version of YTYBT. : More crew logs like Redux does, especially in Infinity's bad future levels. : Other Pfhor slave races besides the S'pht in the later two games could : appear as well, though they may have to stay on space stations and Pfhor : ships since Lh'owon might be uninhabitable for them, especially for : Dinniol. : New weapons and/or weapon tweaks could include the cordyceps weapon cut from : Marathon 2, which would make any hostile you zombify with it into : friendlies. It doesn't work on Bobs as the virus is too alien for human : DNA. (cribbing from the second or third Space Odyssey book here) : A Wave Motion Cannon in Marathon 1 could appear in a new "Ultimate : Marathon" scenario as an interequel between it and Marathon 2. : PID's Isfet Crystals could appear in Infinity as a reward for taking the : failure levels, hidden in said maps themselves. You'd need all 6 emeralds : in order to beat the W'rkncacnter avatar at the end of the Vidmaster : challenge. (perhaps the Aye Mak Sicur secret exit could be gated off : unless the player has them all so the player doesn't get themselves stuck : by taking it without all the crystakls they need) : The chaingun from Marathon Evil with some buffs and unique ammo could also : serve as the "BFG" of the main Marathon games instead of the : overpowered WMC. : Grenade climbing and flamethrower jetpacking from M1 Classic would also need : to be in the other two games as well, since i never liked their nerfing in : those. : Besides an interequel between M1 & M2 (inspired by the cut one), we could : also get one for between M2 & MI to explain how we ended up on the : station in the prologue to begin with. New levels in the games themselves : could be implementing the original idea for Naw Man He's Close (which : became the plan for the cut Covenant Ship level in Halo 2) complete with : the huge space skydiving sequence. : After landing on Boomer, you'd fight along the hull and up the tower to reach : the hull breach into the ship, at which point the actual Naw Man He's : Close map would load, but with partial vacuum like Eternal 1.2 and Redux : have. (Same with Foe Hammer) : The space jump and tower map could be called "What If You Miss?" If : there's space on the Weland grid, there could be map writing on this level : that makes another Halo 2 joke: "For a brick, he flew pretty : good!" : Sorry if this post is getting rather long. Just thought I'd clarify what I : meant a little better, suggest some way of going about such a feat if it : ever came to pass, and add to your ideas of where it could draw ideas : from. : Anyhoo, here's the videos of the "brutal mod" examples above as : promised to help explain their particular unique points over Brutal Doom : better than I can: :

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Brutal Marathon?! Sign me up!	Lion O Cyborg	8/16/20 1:36 p.m.
Re: Brutal Marathon?! Sign me up!	General-RADIX	8/16/20 3:23 p.m.
Re: Brutal Marathon?! Sign me up!	Lion O Cyborg	8/17/20 3:12 a.m.



	Your Name:
	Your E-Mail Address:
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	Message: : Probably. There's also the original System Shock (minus the PID style : interface) that could tie into those latter game ideas, though that's a : metroidvania as opposed to an adventure game. There's also Hedon, whose : level quests reminded me of Marathon a little, such as following : "terminals" (paper logs and books in this game) to create a : potion needed to remove a locking spell on a door, or a big foundry level : where you run around trying to forge something for a puzzle. There was : even logs and a hidden map to lead the player to a secret backpack in one : of the outdoor areas that was a little too hidden in my opinion. : For ideas of actual graphic adventure games to crib from, I'd suggest Fran : Bow, Rama and maybe even Blade Runner or A New Beginning. : You're right as a "Brutal Marathon" (it's more a placeholder name : than anything) would need something unique like those adventure game : draws, in order to fit Marathon's tone and mood. If it was just : "Brutal Doom Marathon Edition" like I implied that wouldn't be : good: There's already at least two examples of games where they just make : it bloodier, add a quick kick, slap "brutal" onto the title and : call it a day like Brutal Half Life does. That's boring, especially as : Half Life like Marathon is not about simply killing lots of nasty dudes. : For examples of "brutal" mods doing their own thing; DN3D Alien : Armageddon tells itself apart from Brutal Doom by having Bombshell from : Ion Maiden (her DNF 2001 look) follow Duke around with the option to : switch between the two with unique weapon counterparts for Shelly, Sonic : Heroes style. It also adds a brand new episode 5 to showcase things better : as well as the expansion packs (except Nuclear Winter). : Quake 1.5 tells itself apart by reworking some of the levels in interesting : ways, adds new secret levels like a metro train one reached from the : Dismal Oubliette, gives all episodes proper boss fights at the end and : makes Shub Niggurath not suck anymore. : Both of the above also add new monsters such as the Big Foot & Hot Shot : enforcers, DNF "Major" octobrains and terminators in DN3D AA, or : Arcane Dimensions monsters in Quake 1.5. I'll embed videos covering them : each at the end of the post for better context. : Marathon's counterpart to those would need something unique to tell it apart : from all of them without making it like all the others as you say. New : monsters and weapons could certainly a part of that, but like DN3D & : Quake 1.5 this ain't Doom: it's way better than it so it needs something : to stand out from the others. : For example, adjusting the satellite in G4 Sunbathing could be more than just : hitting the switches. Maybe Marcus could hit the switches to power it up, : but then he has to angle it in the general direction of sol in order to : make it work. There would need to be a marker on the dish stand for : guidance in case the sprite rotates to face the wrong way as you walk : round it. I'm not sure how one would go about it though, as I don't think : Aleph One supports rotating or moving polygons yet. : New monsters could include the cut Pfhor "dogs" in Marathon 1, : Pfhor civilians/janitors on the ships, the S'pht cordyceps : "Flood" zombies in Marathon 2+3 (Infinity) plus PID or Eternal : 1.2 PID style monsters in Infinity during levels where the W'rk is free or : about to break out. They can also appear in the Vidmaster challenge maps. : Aye Mak Sicur would need a final boss as well as the vanilla map was a : massive anti-climax. I guess it could do the PID thing and have a : semi-awake avatar of the W'rk stalk and/or fight the player as they : navigate the station with making it vanish being a goal. It would have to : take more hits and do more than just send monster waves after you, as : PID's final boss was a little weak in that regard. : That or instead the final boss could be Admiral Tfear (with unique sprites : and AI) and the PID esque W'rk fight could instead be an "extra : boss"/True Final Boss you fight if you take the vidmaster's : challenge, replacing the Pfhor in that version of YTYBT. : More crew logs like Redux does, especially in Infinity's bad future levels. : Other Pfhor slave races besides the S'pht in the later two games could : appear as well, though they may have to stay on space stations and Pfhor : ships since Lh'owon might be uninhabitable for them, especially for : Dinniol. : New weapons and/or weapon tweaks could include the cordyceps weapon cut from : Marathon 2, which would make any hostile you zombify with it into : friendlies. It doesn't work on Bobs as the virus is too alien for human : DNA. (cribbing from the second or third Space Odyssey book here) : A Wave Motion Cannon in Marathon 1 could appear in a new "Ultimate : Marathon" scenario as an interequel between it and Marathon 2. : PID's Isfet Crystals could appear in Infinity as a reward for taking the : failure levels, hidden in said maps themselves. You'd need all 6 emeralds : in order to beat the W'rkncacnter avatar at the end of the Vidmaster : challenge. (perhaps the Aye Mak Sicur secret exit could be gated off : unless the player has them all so the player doesn't get themselves stuck : by taking it without all the crystakls they need) : The chaingun from Marathon Evil with some buffs and unique ammo could also : serve as the "BFG" of the main Marathon games instead of the : overpowered WMC. : Grenade climbing and flamethrower jetpacking from M1 Classic would also need : to be in the other two games as well, since i never liked their nerfing in : those. : Besides an interequel between M1 & M2 (inspired by the cut one), we could : also get one for between M2 & MI to explain how we ended up on the : station in the prologue to begin with. New levels in the games themselves : could be implementing the original idea for Naw Man He's Close (which : became the plan for the cut Covenant Ship level in Halo 2) complete with : the huge space skydiving sequence. : After landing on Boomer, you'd fight along the hull and up the tower to reach : the hull breach into the ship, at which point the actual Naw Man He's : Close map would load, but with partial vacuum like Eternal 1.2 and Redux : have. (Same with Foe Hammer) : The space jump and tower map could be called "What If You Miss?" If : there's space on the Weland grid, there could be map writing on this level : that makes another Halo 2 joke: "For a brick, he flew pretty : good!" : Sorry if this post is getting rather long. Just thought I'd clarify what I : meant a little better, suggest some way of going about such a feat if it : ever came to pass, and add to your ideas of where it could draw ideas : from. : Anyhoo, here's the videos of the "brutal mod" examples above as : promised to help explain their particular unique points over Brutal Doom : better than I can: :
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