Re: I Don't Think We Survived That Nova...


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Re: I Don't Think We Survived That Nova...

Posted By: Philtron Date: 6/13/12 8:07 p.m.
In Response To: Re: I Don't Think We Survived That Nova... (PerseusSpartacus)

A lack of evidence for one theory (we're alive) is not proof of another (we're dead). That's not how logic works.
And actually, there is evidence that we're not dead. Like the fact that we're not dead. By default, if someone is running around, swimming, firing guns, and using machinery that means they're alive. If someone is doing all those things in a story then we have to assume that they are alive, and the only way we don't assume that is if something within the text tells us otherwise. That's a rule of critical analysis. There is nothing indicating that anyone in the Marathon universe goes on dream journeys after they're dead. There is also no indication that there is any sort of "life" after death nor afterlife in the Marathon universe. Even AIs which can be reassembled after they're "killed" (like Tycho and Leela) cease to exist while they're dead, as far as we know. Since there is nothing suggesting that there are exceptions to the rule then we must fall back on the default rule: if someone is moving around and performing actions then they are alive. So, we are alive in Marathon: Infinity.
Your resolution to the "discontinuity" between M2 and Infinity is a mistake and creates more questions than answers. First, at the end of "All Roads Lead To Sol" Durandal says that there are several hours before the nova is triggered and reaches Lh'owen, plenty of time to get away. So if we died in the nova, what happened during those several hours? Why wasn't Durandal able to get away? See how it brings up more questions than answers. Second, there is not the discontinuity between 2 and Infinity you mention. Any difference in timelines can be logically explained with "we're jumping between realities". At the end of M2 we don't know the status of the trih xeem; Durandal just implies that the Pfhor have decided to use it and mentions that it is a Jjaro device. As far as we know it hasn't even hit the sun yet when we finish "All Roads..." so we have no way of knowing whether the W'rk was there or not. So it is perfectly logical that "Ne Cede Malis" is a separate reality from M2.
Here are the actual discontinuities between M2's final screen and the events of Infinity's "victorious" timeline:
M2:
1) Tycho is dead; his copies aid the Pfhor
2) Blake and his men escape on the Hfarl
3) Durandal is runnin' around doin' his thing, presumably as his good ole self
4) You still obey Durandal
5) It's plausible that Leela's fate in M2 is still the same in Infinity
Infinity:
1) Tycho is alive and under the control of Tfear's special compiler unit
2) I don't remember what's the fate of the humans but most of them are dead
3) There is no Durandal; he has been replaced by a new Durandal-S'pht entity
4) The new Durandal entity has released you from your bondage
Anyway.
Perseus, I think it's great that you're this interested in the Marathon story. It's great that in this day and age of gajillion polygon meshes and hyperbolic physics engine that people still recognize the exceptional quality of games like Marathon (Marathon: Infinity is to this day one of the best written video games). However I have to again stress, if you're going to analyze a story, whether it's in literate, film, or games, then you can only speculate on what the authors have actually told you, whether within the text or outside the text.
I'll leave you with a quote from an interview with Kirkpatrick and Geisel. You can find it in the "Dream Levels and Failed Timelines" section. Keep in mind, the trih xeem is Jjaro technology, and your own cyborg machinery may be of Jjaro origin as well.
"HS: The Infinity manual provides us with the first indication that everything is not as it seems. The M2 events at Lh'owon have been rewritten and Durandal is about to meet his demise at the hands of the Pfhor. The Prologue level reaffirms this yet on level 2 we appear to find ourselves journeying back in time and working for Tycho! Are these in effect three different timelines?
GK & CG: Yes, the player is jumping from a number of possible futures trying to find the path (eat the path) that will allow him to survive the cataclysm on Lh'owon, and unite him with 11th clan in a way that Durandal never could. How the player is able to do this jumping has to do with the unique interaction between Jjaro technology and sentient creatures."

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: A lack of evidence for one theory (we're alive) is not proof of another : (we're dead). That's not how logic works. : And actually, there is evidence that we're not dead. Like the fact that we're : not dead. By default, if someone is running around, swimming, firing guns, : and using machinery that means they're alive. If someone is doing all : those things in a story then we have to assume that they are alive, and : the only way we don't assume that is if something within the text tells us : otherwise. That's a rule of critical analysis. There is nothing indicating : that anyone in the Marathon universe goes on dream journeys after they're : dead. There is also no indication that there is any sort of : "life" after death nor afterlife in the Marathon universe. Even : AIs which can be reassembled after they're "killed" (like Tycho : and Leela) cease to exist while they're dead, as far as we know. Since : there is nothing suggesting that there are exceptions to the rule then we : must fall back on the default rule: if someone is moving around and : performing actions then they are alive. So, we are alive in Marathon: : Infinity. : Your resolution to the "discontinuity" between M2 and Infinity is a : mistake and creates more questions than answers. First, at the end of : "All Roads Lead To Sol" Durandal says that there are several : hours before the nova is triggered and reaches Lh'owen, plenty of time to : get away. So if we died in the nova, what happened during those several : hours? Why wasn't Durandal able to get away? See how it brings up more : questions than answers. Second, there is not the discontinuity between 2 : and Infinity you mention. Any difference in timelines can be logically : explained with "we're jumping between realities". At the end of : M2 we don't know the status of the trih xeem; Durandal just implies that : the Pfhor have decided to use it and mentions that it is a Jjaro device. : As far as we know it hasn't even hit the sun yet when we finish "All : Roads..." so we have no way of knowing whether the W'rk was there or : not. So it is perfectly logical that "Ne Cede Malis" is a : separate reality from M2. : Here are the actual discontinuities between M2's final screen and the events : of Infinity's "victorious" timeline: M2: 1) Tycho is dead; his : copies aid the Pfhor : 2) Blake and his men escape on the Hfarl : 3) Durandal is runnin' around doin' his thing, presumably as his good ole : self : 4) You still obey Durandal : 5) It's plausible that Leela's fate in M2 is still the same in Infinity : Infinity: 1) Tycho is alive and under the control of Tfear's special compiler : unit : 2) I don't remember what's the fate of the humans but most of them are dead : 3) There is no Durandal; he has been replaced by a new Durandal-S'pht entity : 4) The new Durandal entity has released you from your bondage : Anyway. : Perseus, I think it's great that you're this interested in the Marathon : story. It's great that in this day and age of gajillion polygon meshes and : hyperbolic physics engine that people still recognize the exceptional : quality of games like Marathon (Marathon: Infinity is to this day one of : the best written video games). However I have to again stress, if you're : going to analyze a story, whether it's in literate, film, or games, then : you can only speculate on what the authors have actually told you, whether : within the text or outside the text. : I'll leave you with a quote from an interview with Kirkpatrick and Geisel. : You can find it in the "Dream Levels and Failed Timelines" : section. Keep in mind, the trih xeem is Jjaro technology, and your own : cyborg machinery may be of Jjaro origin as well. : "HS: The Infinity manual provides us with the first indication that : everything is not as it seems. The M2 events at Lh'owon have been : rewritten and Durandal is about to meet his demise at the hands of the : Pfhor. The Prologue level reaffirms this yet on level 2 we appear to find : ourselves journeying back in time and working for Tycho! Are these in : effect three different timelines? : GK & CG: Yes, the player is jumping from a number of possible futures : trying to find the path (eat the path) that will allow him to survive the : cataclysm on Lh'owon, and unite him with 11th clan in a way that Durandal : never could. How the player is able to do this jumping has to do with the : unique interaction between Jjaro technology and sentient creatures."

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I Don't Think We Survived That Nova...	PerseusSpartacus	6/10/12 10:09 a.m.
Re: I Don't Think We Survived That Nova...	Godot	6/10/12 10:54 a.m.
Re: I Don't Think We Survived That Nova...	PerseusSpartacus	6/10/12 2:04 p.m.
Re: I Don't Think We Survived That Nova...	listener	6/13/12 9:27 a.m.
Re: I Don't Think We Survived That Nova...	PerseusSpartacus	6/13/12 11:27 a.m.
Re: I Don't Think We Survived That Nova...	Blayne	6/15/12 9:29 p.m.
Re: I Don't Think We Survived That Nova...	Philtron	6/13/12 2:59 p.m.
Re: I Don't Think We Survived That Nova...	PerseusSpartacus	6/13/12 3:35 p.m.
Re: I Don't Think We Survived That Nova...	Philtron	6/13/12 8:07 p.m.
Re: I Don't Think We Survived That Nova...	PerseusSpartacus	6/13/12 9:51 p.m.
Re: I Don't Think We Survived That Nova...	Philtron	6/14/12 7:22 a.m.
Re: I Don't Think We Survived That Nova...	PerseusSpartacus	6/14/12 8:54 a.m.
Re: I Don't Think We Survived That Nova...	listener	6/14/12 9:36 a.m.
Re: I Don't Think We Survived That Nova...	Philtron	6/14/12 5:38 p.m.
Re: I Don't Think We Survived That Nova...	listener	6/17/12 6:59 a.m.
Re: I Don't Think We Survived That Nova...	PerseusSpartacus	6/17/12 1:13 p.m.
Re: I Don't Think We Survived That Nova...	Philtron	6/17/12 2:03 p.m.
Re: I Don't Think We Survived That Nova...	listener	6/17/12 2:56 p.m.
Re: I Don't Think We Survived That Nova...	Philtron	6/17/12 3:55 p.m.
Re: I Don't Think We Survived That Nova...	listener	6/18/12 9:21 a.m.
Re: I Don't Think We Survived That Nova...	PerseusSpartacus	6/17/12 5:48 p.m.
Re: I Don't Think We Survived That Nova...	Philtron	6/18/12 6:30 a.m.
Re: I Don't Think We Survived That Nova...	Godot	6/18/12 9:51 a.m.
Re: I Don't Think We Survived That Nova...	Philtron	6/18/12 12:37 p.m.
Re: I Don't Think We Survived That Nova...	Godot	6/19/12 9:58 a.m.
Re: I Don't Think We Survived That Nova...	Philtron	6/20/12 1:47 p.m.
Re: I Don't Think We Survived That Nova...	PerseusSpartacus	6/20/12 3:26 p.m.
Re: I Don't Think We Survived That Nova...	Philtron	6/21/12 3:06 p.m.
Re: I Don't Think We Survived That Nova...	PerseusSpartacus	6/21/12 3:19 p.m.
Re: I Don't Think We Survived That Nova...	treellama	6/18/12 7:59 a.m.



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	Message: : A lack of evidence for one theory (we're alive) is not proof of another : (we're dead). That's not how logic works. : And actually, there is evidence that we're not dead. Like the fact that we're : not dead. By default, if someone is running around, swimming, firing guns, : and using machinery that means they're alive. If someone is doing all : those things in a story then we have to assume that they are alive, and : the only way we don't assume that is if something within the text tells us : otherwise. That's a rule of critical analysis. There is nothing indicating : that anyone in the Marathon universe goes on dream journeys after they're : dead. There is also no indication that there is any sort of : "life" after death nor afterlife in the Marathon universe. Even : AIs which can be reassembled after they're "killed" (like Tycho : and Leela) cease to exist while they're dead, as far as we know. Since : there is nothing suggesting that there are exceptions to the rule then we : must fall back on the default rule: if someone is moving around and : performing actions then they are alive. So, we are alive in Marathon: : Infinity. : Your resolution to the "discontinuity" between M2 and Infinity is a : mistake and creates more questions than answers. First, at the end of : "All Roads Lead To Sol" Durandal says that there are several : hours before the nova is triggered and reaches Lh'owen, plenty of time to : get away. So if we died in the nova, what happened during those several : hours? Why wasn't Durandal able to get away? See how it brings up more : questions than answers. Second, there is not the discontinuity between 2 : and Infinity you mention. Any difference in timelines can be logically : explained with "we're jumping between realities". At the end of : M2 we don't know the status of the trih xeem; Durandal just implies that : the Pfhor have decided to use it and mentions that it is a Jjaro device. : As far as we know it hasn't even hit the sun yet when we finish "All : Roads..." so we have no way of knowing whether the W'rk was there or : not. So it is perfectly logical that "Ne Cede Malis" is a : separate reality from M2. : Here are the actual discontinuities between M2's final screen and the events : of Infinity's "victorious" timeline: M2: 1) Tycho is dead; his : copies aid the Pfhor : 2) Blake and his men escape on the Hfarl : 3) Durandal is runnin' around doin' his thing, presumably as his good ole : self : 4) You still obey Durandal : 5) It's plausible that Leela's fate in M2 is still the same in Infinity : Infinity: 1) Tycho is alive and under the control of Tfear's special compiler : unit : 2) I don't remember what's the fate of the humans but most of them are dead : 3) There is no Durandal; he has been replaced by a new Durandal-S'pht entity : 4) The new Durandal entity has released you from your bondage : Anyway. : Perseus, I think it's great that you're this interested in the Marathon : story. It's great that in this day and age of gajillion polygon meshes and : hyperbolic physics engine that people still recognize the exceptional : quality of games like Marathon (Marathon: Infinity is to this day one of : the best written video games). However I have to again stress, if you're : going to analyze a story, whether it's in literate, film, or games, then : you can only speculate on what the authors have actually told you, whether : within the text or outside the text. : I'll leave you with a quote from an interview with Kirkpatrick and Geisel. : You can find it in the "Dream Levels and Failed Timelines" : section. Keep in mind, the trih xeem is Jjaro technology, and your own : cyborg machinery may be of Jjaro origin as well. : "HS: The Infinity manual provides us with the first indication that : everything is not as it seems. The M2 events at Lh'owon have been : rewritten and Durandal is about to meet his demise at the hands of the : Pfhor. The Prologue level reaffirms this yet on level 2 we appear to find : ourselves journeying back in time and working for Tycho! Are these in : effect three different timelines? : GK & CG: Yes, the player is jumping from a number of possible futures : trying to find the path (eat the path) that will allow him to survive the : cataclysm on Lh'owon, and unite him with 11th clan in a way that Durandal : never could. How the player is able to do this jumping has to do with the : unique interaction between Jjaro technology and sentient creatures."
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