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Re: Something is wrong... | ||
Posted By: Forrest of B.org | Date: 11/22/06 9:09 a.m. | |
In Response To: Something is wrong... (MrHen) When I speak of multiple timelines existing or not-existing, I mean it in an omniscient sense outside the universe, as though you were looking at a flowchart describing the causal chain of events. Because you are completely outside of time, nothing can *change*, because change is nought but a difference in something between one point and another. A cone changes diameter along some spatial axis; and in the exact same way, a growing circle changes diameter across the temporal axis. If you were somehow seeing all four dimensions of relativistic spacetime laid out in front of you the way we mere mortals can only see 1- or 2-dimensional structures, and then you saw some feature of that 4D spacetime change (e.g. a timeline got altered), then you must necessarily be experiencing some sort of "hyper-time" yourself (otherwise you could experience no change at all), and in your "hyper-past", the original timeline still exists. This will be hard to describe without pictures and animations, but I'll try. The classical vision of time is unilinear with no time travel. If you represent the entire 3D universe as a single point, then the shape of that complete 4D universe would be represented as just a 1-dimensional line from the past, through the present, to the future. When you introduce time travel of any sort, that diagram of the universe must become two-dimensional. Some part of that line branches off (somehow) and turns around before reconnecting with an earlier part of the line. At this point only one of two things can happen; it continues forward along a slightly different path, creating a branching timeline, or it just connects to the old path in a perfect loop. What you seem to be saying is that it can continue forward *over* the old path (covering it up). But if it did that, it's *still* in fact a branching timeline; you've just introduced another dimension of hypertime into the picture, a vertical one home up off the "page". If you stopped looking at this diagram top-down and swung around to look edge on to the plane of the "page", you'd see that the new timeline isn't really in the same place as the old timeline was, but above it, offset from it. If it actually *was* the case that two different lines ran through the exact same place in this omniscient view, then when you expand that to describe the state of affairs in the 3D universe represented by a little point in this diagram, you have two different things being the case in the same place at the same time in the same timeline - a contradiction, which is completely inconceivable and impossible. If you-this-'omniscient'-observer were only seeing sequential 2D slices of this 3D diagram of world-lines, then yes, it would look to you like a branch grew out of the original timeline, wrapped around, and then wrote over the original timeline. But in that case you're not really omniscient. Someone truly omniscient, who could see all of your hyper-time at once, would see the 3D picture described above. Now, from an inside-the-universe perspective, if the only way you have of jumping timelines is via time travel, then you can never get back to your original timeline, and in effect every time you travel to the past you're "changing" what's "real". But every timeline you abandon to travel to the past again, still continues on it's own, just without you in it. If you had some sort of device which would allow you to move not only through time but also directly across to alternate timelines, you could conceivable return to that timeline. You could go into the past, change something, go back to the future (the time you left from) of that new, changed timeline to see how it turned out, and if you don't like it, just hop back over to your original timeline and abandon the one you screwed up. That sort of system is what I'm calling "multilinear time". Any system where it is possible to affect the past (no paradoxes prohibiting it), and where those effects weren't already taken into account in the timeline you came from (no world loops), necessarily is multilinear. The *only* other logically possible alternatives to multilinear time (both of which would be unilinear time) are world loops, which seem highly implausible, or time travel being impossible, which seems highly plausible. Although time travel could be impossible and time still be multilinear, with every possible timeline "really" existing parallel to our own, as the many-worlds interpretation of quantum physics predicts. In effect, there are four ways time could work: Unilinear with no time travel - the classical view.
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Replies: |
Plotline question concerning Infinity | Icarus | 11/15/06 12:18 p.m. | |
Re: Plotline question concerning Infinity | Forrest of B.org | 11/15/06 1:10 p.m. | |
Re: Plotline question concerning Infinity | RyokoTK | 11/15/06 1:43 p.m. | |
Re: Plotline question concerning Infinity | Forrest of B.org | 11/15/06 3:51 p.m. | |
Re: Plotline question concerning Infinity | Forrest of B.org | 11/15/06 3:59 p.m. | |
time travel and plots in general | MrHen | 11/15/06 6:08 p.m. | |
Re: time travel and plots in general | patrick | 11/15/06 6:48 p.m. | |
Re: time travel and plots in general | Forrest of B.org | 11/15/06 7:57 p.m. | |
more on plot | MrHen | 11/16/06 5:07 a.m. | |
Re: more on plot | Document | 11/18/06 11:39 a.m. | |
I would not know. | MrHen | 11/18/06 12:33 p.m. | |
Re: I would not know. | Document | 11/18/06 12:44 p.m. | |
oh, okay. :) | MrHen | 11/18/06 3:37 p.m. | |
Re: oh, okay. :) | thermoplyae | 11/18/06 7:18 p.m. | |
Re: time travel and plots in general | LegacyTyphoon | 11/17/06 12:39 a.m. | |
Re: time travel | Frungi | 11/17/06 1:04 p.m. | |
Re: time travel | Document | 11/17/06 1:09 p.m. | |
Re: time travel | MrHen | 11/17/06 2:51 p.m. | |
Re: time travel | Frungi | 11/18/06 1:09 p.m. | |
Re: time travel | Document | 11/20/06 11:01 a.m. | |
well, obviously | MrHen | 11/20/06 12:17 p.m. | |
Re: well, obviously | Frungi | 11/20/06 5:01 p.m. | |
Re: well, obviously | Forrest of B.org | 11/20/06 6:52 p.m. | |
unilinear? | MrHen | 11/21/06 4:49 a.m. | |
Re: unilinear? | Frungi | 11/21/06 5:49 a.m. | |
gah, no... | MrHen | 11/21/06 6:21 a.m. | |
Re: gah, no... | Frungi | 11/21/06 7:41 a.m. | |
Re: gah, no... | MrHen | 11/21/06 8:25 a.m. | |
Hypothetical question | Frungi | 11/21/06 1:45 p.m. | |
Hypothetical answers | MrHen | 11/22/06 4:53 a.m. | |
Re: Hypothetical answers | Frungi | 11/22/06 4:24 p.m. | |
Re: Hypothetical answers | MrHen | 11/23/06 7:52 a.m. | |
Re: Hypothetical answers | Frungi | 11/23/06 9:11 a.m. | |
Re: Hypothetical answers | MrHen | 11/23/06 4:04 p.m. | |
Re: gah, no... | Forrest of B.org | 11/21/06 8:19 p.m. | |
there are no time-loops | MrHen | 11/22/06 4:21 a.m. | |
Re: unilinear? | Forrest of B.org | 11/21/06 8:07 p.m. | |
Something is wrong... | MrHen | 11/22/06 4:35 a.m. | |
Re: Something is wrong... | Forrest of B.org | 11/22/06 9:09 a.m. | |
this is awesome, I love this stuff | MrHen | 11/22/06 9:33 a.m. | |
Re: this is awesome, I love this stuff | treellama | 11/22/06 11:25 a.m. | |
Re: this is awesome, I love this stuff | Forrest of B.org | 11/22/06 12:00 p.m. | |
Re: this is awesome, I love this stuff | treellama | 11/22/06 2:41 p.m. | |
Re: this is awesome, I love this stuff | Forrest of B.org | 11/22/06 5:48 p.m. | |
Re: this is awesome, I love this stuff | treellama | 11/23/06 4:58 a.m. | |
ha, nice | MrHen | 11/23/06 8:05 a.m. | |
Re: this is awesome, I love this stuff | Document | 9/18/07 11:06 a.m. | |
Re: this is awesome, I love this stuff | Forrest of B.org | 11/22/06 12:28 p.m. | |
Re: this is awesome, I love this stuff | Frungi | 11/22/06 4:07 p.m. | |
Re: this is awesome, I love this stuff | Forrest of B.org | 11/22/06 6:05 p.m. | |
Re: this is awesome, I love this stuff | Document | 11/22/06 7:14 p.m. | |
Re: this is awesome, I love this stuff | Frungi | 11/22/06 7:31 p.m. | |
Re: this is awesome, I love this stuff | Forrest of B.org | 11/23/06 12:37 a.m. | |
Re: this is awesome, I love this stuff *LINK* | Frungi | 11/25/06 1:15 p.m. | |
Re: this is awesome, I love this stuff | Forrest of B.org | 11/26/06 10:04 a.m. | |
Re: this is awesome, I love this stuff | Frungi | 11/26/06 6:30 p.m. | |
timeline == ? | MrHen | 11/23/06 8:09 a.m. | |
agreement :) | MrHen | 11/23/06 8:00 a.m. | |
Re: Something is wrong... | Aachim | 11/22/06 1:24 p.m. | |
returning to time travel | Pfhorever | 11/23/06 10:13 a.m. | |
Re: returning to time travel | Frungi | 11/23/06 10:43 a.m. | |
Re: well, obviously | Document | 11/21/06 10:30 a.m. | |
Re: time travel | Forrest of B.org | 11/17/06 3:47 p.m. | |
Re: time travel | legacytyphoon | 11/17/06 8:29 p.m. | |
Re: time travel | Document | 11/17/06 9:17 p.m. | |
Re: time travel | Frungi | 11/18/06 1:07 p.m. | |
Re: time travel | Document | 11/19/06 5:59 a.m. | |
I disagree *LINK* | MrHen | 11/18/06 6:55 a.m. | |
Re: time travel and plots in general | Frungi | 11/21/06 7:48 a.m. | |
Re: time travel and plots in general | Forrest of B.org | 11/21/06 8:26 p.m. | |
Re: time travel and plots in general | Vid Boi | 11/16/06 6:18 a.m. | |
Re: time travel and plots in general | D-M.A. | 11/16/06 8:38 a.m. | |
Re: Plotline question concerning Infinity | thermoplyae | 11/15/06 2:05 p.m. | |
*cough* spam *cough* | MrHen | 11/15/06 3:35 p.m. | |
Re: Plotline question concerning Infinity | SnowCrash | 11/15/06 4:12 p.m. | |
Re: Plotline question concerning Infinity | thermoplyae | 11/15/06 5:03 p.m. | |
Re: Plotline question concerning Infinity | kyjel | 11/15/06 5:06 p.m. | |
Re: Plotline question concerning Infinity | thermoplyae | 11/15/06 6:14 p.m. | |
Re: Plotline question concerning Infinity | Document | 11/16/06 10:10 a.m. | |
Re: Plotline question concerning Infinity | REB | 11/16/06 7:31 p.m. | |
REB!!! *NM* | ukimalefu | 11/16/06 8:24 p.m. | |
Re: Hey, ukimalefu! *NM* | REB | 11/17/06 9:41 a.m. | |
MrHen apologized it for in his post, but thanks :) *NM* | thermoplyae | 11/16/06 11:27 p.m. | |
WMaiD | Aaron Sikes | 11/17/06 9:33 a.m. | |
Re: WMaiD | kyjel | 11/17/06 10:28 a.m. | |
It was a joke. >. *NM* | MrHen | 11/17/06 2:49 p.m. | |
Re: Got It ;-) *NM* | REB | 11/17/06 3:07 p.m. | |
WMaiD *LINK* | Blayne | 11/17/06 11:24 a.m. | |
Re: WMaiD | SnowCrash | 11/18/06 10:31 a.m. | |
Re: WMaiD | Blayne | 11/21/06 10:18 a.m. | |
Re: WMaiD | Aaron Sikes | 11/21/06 10:50 a.m. | |
Re: WMaiD | Frungi | 11/21/06 7:09 p.m. |
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