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if all your friends jump of a bridge... (v. long)
Posted By: MrHenDate: 8/23/05 6:23 a.m.

In Response To: Re: OMG (goran)

: * (off topic) what is the devil anyway? Would God who gave us freedom and set
: us free just because the fact that he loves us unconditionally, go against
: his own intention and create something that could harm us, like the devil.
: If you love someone you do NOT punish them, you accept them. I do belive
: I've read that God loves all human beings.

: If you really love someone, you set them free. You don't judge their
: behaivors, or try to change them for the better, you just let them be as
: they are. If they disrepsect you, you accept their choice and leave them
: alone, just because you love them. In my heart, this is God's love to all
: of us.

: -goran

Fine, since no one seems to have a problem diving in...

First: Just because you have a moral problem with what you think "God" or "Satan" is or cannot figure out a certain logical dealio in your view on the whole religiousness thing doesn't mean that God cannot exist. For all we know God is some sadistic schmuck.

Second: Just because some form of Christianity has defined "God" to be omnipotent or omni-benevolent or that "God" created Satan to tempt us or everything is a perfect plan and God has control over the smallest detail of every molecule doesn't mean that the rest of Christianity has. Christianity is like Buddhism in the sense that trying to explain the general idea behind the whole religion is fairly pointless because of how much the different sects and denominations differ.

Third: Believe it or not there are many, many Christian materials written about the Problem of Evil, love, and the whole free will thing. Believe it or not, not every Christian is brain-dead. You may think they have a fundamental flaw in their thinking but they get pretty smart about it. There are a large amount of fools who are Christians, so go ahead and ignore them. If you're actually curious for the answer to the questions you have there are quite a few answers. Not all of them are perfect, and many bring in more questions, and after a while it feels like any other investigation.

Fourth: To the specific questions you raised about the devil and God's supposed love there are a great many opinions on the matter.

1) God or gods (including the devil) don't exist.
Probably the most simple answer on the surface and instead of wondering what God is you begin wondering how the mass majority of the world could believe in something so blatantly false.

2) God uses the devil to get his ultimate, supreme purpose done.
Probably the most common explanation in the US church right now and I'm guessing the Western church in general. I personally find this answer to be quite lacking.

3) God gave the devil the same free-will he gave us but he gave the devil more power.
So... God didn't intend for the devil to be the tempter of all humankind, but he chose to be that way. Just the same way that God must allow person X to commit evil Y: free-will. Problems occur when people ask why God would create the devil if he knew evil would arise. But who said that God knew?

3a) God can see the future, but decided to go ahead and create the devil anyway.
The most common view of God is that he knows the entire future. It's interesting to note that this belief wasn't big until after Christianity collided with Classical Greek thought. The most common excuse that people give to God for this actually goes back to part 2.

3b) God cannot see the future and is a little miffed at the devil.
This makes God more like a really, really good chess player. He cannot see the ultimate future, but he can see all possible outcomes. The game he's currently playing is against the devil and that's because the devil is a big meanie.

4) God didn't create the devil.
"God" and the devil are two competing deities. This sort of diverges from Christianity, but who said Christianity was the only possible answer?

5) God created the devil as a tempter to strengthen us.
The devil's purpose is to help us become fit or appreciate the reward God has for us for being good little followers. Ultimately the devil is merely a tool that God used to accomplish what he wanted in us. This is more of a specific subsidiary of part 2.

6) The devil was created for God's glory.
God created an opponent so God could beat the opponent and prove to the universe he is glory-worthy.



Yada yada. In any case, I'm sure you can see major issues with about all of those. The list underneath each goes on for quite some time and there are quite a few people who have decided to make it their life's work. Personally I believe something closest to 3b (which is probably obvious because of the inherent bias I use when writing quickly because I'm late for work). I have a hunch you are closest to 1.

The whole point to this was to attempt to show people that you cannot end all of Christianity with a problem that can be stated in one paragraph. That being said, there is a lot of crap that common Christians believe and so I can understand being skeptical of them. Don't take it out on the "religion" they associate themselves to.

Other religions are often a victim of this as well. Islam is an easy example, but I don't know anything about it. So instead I'll use Buddhism. There are tons of sects to Buddhism (including some awful Christianity/Buddhism hybrids... *shudder*). Some of these sects are worth noting, others are a waste of time. I can't remember the names of all of them (I'm terrible with names) but I do remember Pure Land Buddhism being one of the more pointless religions.

Blah. So there is a ramble for you and this is what happens when I get involved in these things. I don't have time to proof so I apologize for any typos and I hope it made sense. :P

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Pre-2004 Posts

Replies:

OMGthomas 8/19/05 1:55 p.m.
     Re: OMGukimalefu 8/19/05 2:19 p.m.
     Re: OMGkyjel 8/19/05 2:33 p.m.
     Re: OMGgoran 8/19/05 3:06 p.m.
           I'm going to resist the temptation of that debate. *NM*MrHen 8/19/05 5:02 p.m.
                 mysterious choice (plays x-files music) *NM*goran 8/20/05 3:33 a.m.
           *doesn't resist temptation of debate*Me_43 8/19/05 10:10 p.m.
                 Re: *doesn't resist temptation of debate*goran 8/20/05 3:29 a.m.
                       Re: *doesn't resist temptation of debate*Me_43 8/20/05 5:22 p.m.
                             Re: *doesn't resist temptation of debate*dual 8/20/05 10:47 p.m.
                                   Re: *doesn't resist temptation of debate*mt_mikal 8/21/05 2:16 a.m.
                             Re: *doesn't resist temptation of debate*goran 8/21/05 4:47 a.m.
                                   Re: *doesn't resist temptation of debate*Me_43 8/21/05 7:07 p.m.
                                         Re: *doesn't resist temptation of debate*Dave 8/22/05 12:40 a.m.
                                               Re: *doesn't resist temptation of debate*Me_43 8/22/05 1:13 a.m.
                                                     Re: *doesn't resist temptation of debate*Dave 8/22/05 3:11 a.m.
                                                           Re: *doesn't resist temptation of debate*Me_43 8/22/05 7:15 p.m.
                                                                 Re: *doesn't resist temptation of debate*Elliott dagen 8/23/05 2:09 p.m.
                                                                       Re: *doesn't resist temptation of debate*Me_43 8/23/05 7:56 p.m.
                       Re: *doesn't resist temptation of debate*C Lund 8/22/05 6:46 a.m.
                             Re: *doesn't resist temptation of debate*goran 8/22/05 9:40 a.m.
           Also not going to resist the arguementCpt. Sqweky 8/20/05 8:20 p.m.
                 Re: Also not going to resist the arguementgoran 8/21/05 4:24 a.m.
                 Re: Also not going to resist the arguementDave 8/22/05 12:43 a.m.
                       Re: Also not going to resist the arguementSteve Levinson 8/22/05 5:21 a.m.
                             Re: Also not going to resist the arguementDave 8/23/05 2:43 a.m.
           Re: OMGElliott dagen 8/21/05 11:15 a.m.
           if all your friends jump of a bridge... (v. long)MrHen 8/23/05 6:23 a.m.
                 Re: if all your friends jump of a bridge... (v. logoran 8/23/05 9:59 a.m.
                       Re: if all your friends jump of a bridge... (v. loVid Boi 8/23/05 1:04 p.m.
                       Re: if all your friends jump of a bridge... (v. loMrHen 9/1/05 10:00 a.m.
                             Re: if all your friends jump of a bridge... (v. logoran 9/2/05 2:30 a.m.
     Re: OMGblake37 8/19/05 3:19 p.m.
           Re: OMGukimalefu 8/19/05 9:50 p.m.
           Re: OMGAnon 8/19/05 10:05 p.m.
     Boring... nothing happened! *NM*D-M.A. 8/19/05 10:14 p.m.
     Re: OMGVid Boi 8/20/05 11:08 a.m.
           Re: OMGdual 8/20/05 10:55 p.m.
                 Re: OMGgoran 8/21/05 4:57 a.m.

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