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Re: ...........what is this
Posted By: Hawaiian Pig <hawaiianpig@gmail.com>Date: 4/16/12 1:14 p.m.

In Response To: Re: ...........what is this (Louis Wu)


: How is it not one?

: - It's not necessary in the normal flow of life (though it opens avenues that
: would otherwise be closed
: - anyone can try to get one (well, there are prerequisites, but so?)
: - if you fail, you aren't 'done' - you just travel a different path.

: How is this not the same as an 'unlockable'?

In the most broad definition of the term "unlockable" sure. But if we give it that broad of a definition, it loses meaning. No one refers to a degree as an unlockable because that's not what we've come to know them as. No one refers to the mushroom that comes out of the block you hit an unlockable either.

"Unlockable" in the video game context, and for the purposes of our discussion needs a clear definition. I've offered one that seems to capture what Cody and others have been getting at, and I think it's apt.

An unlockable is a reward for completing a challenge that is not another similar challenge.

: Eh. The idea that level progression is the natural order of things, but
: unlockables are not gives the level designers permission to define how to
: play on the one hand, but not on the other. You either say "it's
: their game, they've decided how it progresses, ipso facto level
: progression is not the same as 'unlockables'" or you say 'the gamer
: should have the choice to decide what parts of the game he wants to play,
: the developer has no right to hide things away" - you can't say both.

But the designer always defines how you play. The boundaries upon which your sandbox exists within have to be defined at some point. I don't think anyone can say that the designer is never allowed to draw lines and make the player do things. It's what they ask of you.

This isn't to say that unlockables are never a good thing. They just tend to force players to do things they would rather not do. Players don't feel forced to complete level 1 to get to level 2, because they clearly enjoy engaging in that challenge.

Some players don't even touch a campaign and hop into multiplayer. They progress from Rank 1 to rank 2, but again, don't feel forced into doing it. They're engaging in the challenge.

In Grand Theft Auto games, for example, players can progress throughout the story without engaging in acquiring any of the unlockables. Most often, every item is available to the player at some point.

Some players embark on finding hidden packages to unlock weapons caches to have easy access to items. They don't need to do this. In fact, most players that really want those weapons just use cheats for them. The ones that actually embark on the hidden package challenge are "completionists". Their reward is most often a "100%", not the weapons cache. If anything, the weapons cache is an in game testament to their achievement.

Are unlockables always bad? No. Sometimes you complete in game objectives to unlock interesting content. They're always a reward, and they're almost always unrelated to the challenge required to get them. Herein lies the problem; sometimes the challenge required to get them is simply something the player doesn't want to do.

This is the precise reason why GTA has cheats in the first place. The designers understand that some players can't be bothered to complete a game 100% and just want to fuck around in an attack helicopter. They don't require you to painstakingly acquire 100% completion. They drive this home by making it impossible to attain 100% if you use cheats. It's clear they recognize that different players play their game differently... and therefore they structure their unlockables accordingly

Ride it.


Message Index



Replies:

Present thoughts about the future *long*Hedgemony 4/11/12 9:44 p.m.
     I'm Grim, & this is my favorite post on the forum *NM*GrimBrother One 4/11/12 9:50 p.m.
     Hear hear! *NM*Das Kalk 4/11/12 9:53 p.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 4/11/12 10:16 p.m.
     Brilliantly well put, mirrors my own thoughts. *NM*Tiny 4/11/12 10:19 p.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*stabbim 4/11/12 10:23 p.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*bluerunner 4/11/12 10:26 p.m.
     well put *NM*kidtsunami 4/11/12 10:29 p.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*KP 4/11/12 10:31 p.m.
           Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*tucsonbatman 4/11/12 10:57 p.m.
           Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*DEEP NNN 4/12/12 6:37 a.m.
           Just you wait. You're next! :p *NM*rhubarb 4/12/12 10:57 a.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*breitzen 4/11/12 10:41 p.m.
           Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*Frankie 4/12/12 12:21 a.m.
                 Frankie's mental image of HBO until releaseThe Lionheart 4/12/12 12:36 a.m.
                 You dun good kid, great post. *NM*Pebbles 4/12/12 12:55 a.m.
           Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*Frankie 4/12/12 12:26 a.m.
                 Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*Quirel 4/12/12 12:46 a.m.
                 Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*Das Kalk 4/12/12 10:52 a.m.
                 Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*Metalingus627 4/12/12 5:00 p.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*kanbo 4/11/12 10:52 p.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*Vic DeLeon 4/11/12 10:56 p.m.
           Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*Der Flatulator 4/16/12 9:44 a.m.
                 Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*Der Flatulator 4/16/12 9:49 a.m.
                       Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*RC Master 4/16/12 10:58 a.m.
     We have seen the angst before.Captain Spark 4/11/12 11:00 p.m.
     AgreedAnton P. Nym (aka Steve) 4/11/12 11:04 p.m.
     Sing it! Truth. *NM*yakaman 4/11/12 11:11 p.m.
     Well put, indeed. *NM*Leviathan 4/11/12 11:22 p.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*uberfoop 4/11/12 11:35 p.m.
           Re: Change is gouda. *NM*Hedgemony 4/11/12 11:37 p.m.
                 Halo 4 LE = Wheel of smoked gouda? *NM*uberfoop 4/12/12 12:09 a.m.
     Thank you again...GrimBrother One 4/11/12 11:49 p.m.
           Re: Thank you again...Tiny 4/12/12 7:53 a.m.
     Why Halo 4 will be a very bad game *Long, IMGs*Schooly D 4/12/12 12:07 a.m.
     Exquisitely well put, Hedge.The Lionheart 4/12/12 12:23 a.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*Morhek 4/12/12 12:36 a.m.
           Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*stabbim 4/12/12 12:48 a.m.
                 Can a hipster hate hating? Is that possible? *NM*The Lionheart 4/12/12 12:56 a.m.
                       I for one, can't wait for E3Pebbles 4/12/12 1:01 a.m.
                       Love is the new hate. *NM*Kalamari 4/12/12 1:25 a.m.
     Oh Yeah?Bones 4/12/12 1:21 a.m.
           Hedgemony: Voice of Reason and Love *NM*thebruce0 4/12/12 1:44 a.m.
     I'm finding it harder to express my thoughts...Phoenix_9286 4/12/12 2:16 a.m.
           Re: I'm finding it harder to express my thoughts..NsU Soldier 4/12/12 5:24 a.m.
     Josh Holmes took notice of this on twitter. *NM*Bryan Newman 4/12/12 2:17 a.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*BlueNinja 4/12/12 5:36 a.m.
           Of course you still have a place here.The Lionheart 4/12/12 11:45 a.m.
           Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*General Vagueness 4/16/12 6:54 p.m.
     I don't have favorites, but you're my favorite. *NM*Louis Wu 4/12/12 6:44 a.m.
     Nicely put :) *NM*Ciarán 4/12/12 6:48 a.m.
     Well said. *NM*Beckx 4/12/12 7:23 a.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*DEEP NNN 4/12/12 7:37 a.m.
           Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*SonofMacPhisto 4/12/12 8:38 a.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*CaneCutter 4/12/12 8:06 a.m.
     Completely Agree (Glad Someone Said It!)ChrisTheeCrappy 4/12/12 8:57 a.m.
           Re: Completely Agree (Glad Someone Said It!)JDQuackers 4/12/12 12:18 p.m.
     i agreeiForge 4/12/12 10:37 a.m.
     Finally!Der Flatulator 4/12/12 10:45 a.m.
           Re: Finally!Der Flatulator 4/12/12 10:54 a.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*Tawpgun 4/12/12 10:58 a.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*Postmortem 4/12/12 10:58 a.m.
     Hedge is a HammerImpervium 4/12/12 11:08 a.m.
     Well met, sir.dogsounds 4/12/12 12:08 p.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*padraig08 4/12/12 12:10 p.m.
     Best thing I've read on the net in a long while!LostSpartan987 4/12/12 12:36 p.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*Cody Miller 4/12/12 3:23 p.m.
           Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*DEEP NNN 4/12/12 4:03 p.m.
           Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*Hawaiian Pig 4/12/12 11:30 p.m.
           your thoughts on "social"kidtsunami 4/13/12 2:26 a.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*MacGyver10 4/12/12 3:31 p.m.
     You made my day, HedgeCortanaVII 4/12/12 4:36 p.m.
     Amen. *NM*Lawnmower172 4/12/12 5:16 p.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*GreyThor 4/12/12 8:51 p.m.
           Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*Quantum 4/12/12 11:04 p.m.
     My thoughts on this situation.Gravemind 4/13/12 6:31 p.m.
           Re: My thoughts on this situation.Gravemind 4/13/12 6:39 p.m.
           Re: My thoughts on this situation.343winks. 4/14/12 12:19 p.m.
     Like you've spoken for me. *Sorta Long*DrDoctor 4/13/12 11:29 p.m.
     Change *slightly-long*Der Flatulator 4/14/12 8:50 a.m.
           Re: Change *slightly-long*DEEP NNN 4/14/12 9:03 a.m.
           It isn't all good.rhubarb 4/14/12 10:40 a.m.
                 Re: It isn't all good.serpx 4/14/12 2:45 p.m.
                       Re: It isn't all good.rhubarb 4/14/12 3:29 p.m.
           Change for change's sake.Gravemind 4/14/12 7:11 p.m.
                 Re: Change for change's sake.Harmanimus 4/14/12 7:59 p.m.
                       Re: Change for change's sake.Gravemind 4/14/12 8:32 p.m.
                             Re: Change for change's sake.Cody Miller 4/14/12 10:07 p.m.
                                   Re: Change for change's sake.Leviathan 4/14/12 10:52 p.m.
                                         Re: Change for change's sake.Cody Miller 4/15/12 12:20 a.m.
                                         Re: Change for change's sake.SonofMacPhisto 4/15/12 9:04 a.m.
                                               Re: Change for change's sake.Leviathan 4/15/12 1:36 p.m.
                                                     Re: Change for change's sake.Cody Miller 4/15/12 2:18 p.m.
                                                           Re: Change for change's sake.Hawaiian Pig 4/15/12 2:29 p.m.
                                                           Re: Change for change's sake.Leviathan 4/15/12 2:33 p.m.
                                                                 To HP and Levirhubarb 4/15/12 3:01 p.m.
                                                                       Not at allLeviathan 4/15/12 3:15 p.m.
                                                                             Re: Not at allrhubarb 4/15/12 3:27 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: Not at allLeviathan 4/15/12 3:47 p.m.
                                                                                         Warning: Unintended rantMetalingus627 4/15/12 5:13 p.m.
                                                                                               Alienation is unavoidablerhubarb 4/15/12 5:31 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: Alienation is unavoidableMetalingus627 4/15/12 5:47 p.m.
                                                                                                           Because A sucks and B is an egg, obviously.rhubarb 4/15/12 6:31 p.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: Because A sucks and B is an egg, obviously.Metalingus627 4/15/12 7:04 p.m.
                                                                                                                       My point is...rhubarb 4/15/12 7:55 p.m.
                                                                                                                             Re: My point is...DHalo 4/15/12 8:24 p.m.
                                                                                                                                   Re: My point is...rhubarb 4/15/12 8:45 p.m.
                                                                                                                                   Re: My point is...Cody Miller 4/15/12 9:04 p.m.
                                                                                                                                         Re: My point is...DHalo 4/15/12 9:55 p.m.
                                                                                                                                               Re: My point is...uberfoop 4/15/12 10:11 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                     Re: My point is...DHalo 4/15/12 10:18 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: My point is...uberfoop 4/15/12 10:26 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: My point is...DHalo 4/15/12 11:01 p.m.
                                                                                                                                         Re: My point is...DEEP NNN 4/16/12 6:46 a.m.
                                                                                                                                               Re: My point is...RC Master 4/16/12 11:12 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                     Re: My point is...DEEP NNN 4/16/12 11:52 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: to add to thisRevenant1988 4/16/12 12:25 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 PirateUnicorns.bungie.orgRC Master 4/16/12 6:23 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: PirateUnicorns.bungie.orgRevenant1988 4/16/12 7:39 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: PirateUnicorns.bungie.orgthebruce0 4/17/12 11:18 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: PirateUnicorns.bungie.orgRC Master 4/17/12 9:11 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: My point is...RC Master 4/16/12 6:09 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: My point is...DEEP NNN 4/16/12 7:21 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: My point is...uberfoop 4/16/12 7:54 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: My point is...DEEP NNN 4/16/12 8:01 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: My point is...uberfoop 4/16/12 8:06 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: My point is...General Vagueness 4/16/12 10:43 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: My point is...DEEP NNN 4/17/12 7:54 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: My point is...General Vagueness 4/17/12 10:51 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: My point is...DEEP NNN 4/17/12 11:02 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: My point is...General Vagueness 4/17/12 12:37 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: My point is...DEEP NNN 4/17/12 1:32 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: My point is...RC Master 4/17/12 8:33 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: My point is...DEEP NNN 4/17/12 10:43 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                     Re: My point is...Metalingus627 4/16/12 2:52 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: My point is...uberfoop 4/16/12 3:08 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: My point is...Metalingus627 4/16/12 10:18 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: My point is...Gravemind 4/16/12 3:17 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: My point is...Quirel 4/16/12 6:17 p.m.
                                   Re: Change for change's sake.SonGoharotto 4/14/12 11:29 p.m.
                                         Re: Change for change's sake.Hawaiian Pig 4/15/12 12:53 a.m.
                                               I have my moments *NM*SonGoharotto 4/15/12 8:08 a.m.
                                   Re: Change for change's sake.343winks. 4/15/12 3:55 a.m.
                                         Re: Change for change's sake.RC Master 4/15/12 10:32 a.m.
                                               Re: Change for change's sake.Hedgemony 4/15/12 12:30 p.m.
                                                     Re: Change for change's sake.343winks. 4/16/12 4:50 a.m.
                                               Re: Change for change's sake.343winks. 4/16/12 4:45 a.m.
                             I'm gonna rename you Chicken Little.Louis Wu 4/15/12 8:31 a.m.
                                   Just playing Devil's advocate here...SonGoharotto 4/15/12 9:23 a.m.
                                         Re: Just playing Devil's advocate here...Louis Wu 4/15/12 9:43 a.m.
                                               Re: Just playing Devil's advocate here...davidfuchs 4/15/12 9:53 a.m.
                                               Re: Just playing Devil's advocate here...SonGoharotto 4/15/12 11:30 a.m.
                                                     Re: Just playing Devil's advocate here...Anton P. Nym (aka Steve) 4/15/12 12:13 p.m.
                                                     Re: Just playing Devil's advocate here...General Vagueness 4/16/12 7:05 p.m.
                                   Re: I'm gonna rename you Chicken Little.Gravemind 4/15/12 12:38 p.m.
                                         Re: I'm gonna rename you Chicken Little.Louis Wu 4/15/12 12:48 p.m.
                                               Re: I'm gonna rename you Chicken Little.Cody Miller 4/15/12 1:04 p.m.
                                                     Re: I'm gonna rename you Chicken Little.Leviathan 4/15/12 1:47 p.m.
                                                           Re: I'm gonna rename you Chicken Little.Cody Miller 4/15/12 2:16 p.m.
                                                                 Re: I'm gonna rename you Chicken Little.Leviathan 4/15/12 2:27 p.m.
                                                                       Re: I'm gonna rename you Chicken Little.Hawaiian Pig 4/15/12 2:28 p.m.
                                                                             Re: I'm gonna rename you Chicken Little.Hawaiian Pig 4/15/12 2:31 p.m.
                                                                             Re: I'm gonna rename you Chicken Little.Leviathan 4/15/12 2:35 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: I'm gonna rename you Chicken Little.Hawaiian Pig 4/15/12 2:54 p.m.
                                                                                   To clarifyLeviathan 4/15/12 3:01 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: To clarifyrhubarb 4/15/12 3:07 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: To clarifySchooly D 4/15/12 3:40 p.m.
                                                                                               The question everyone is dancing aroundrhubarb 4/15/12 3:48 p.m.
                                                                                                     This has nothing to do with CoD.uberfoop 4/15/12 4:41 p.m.
                                                                                                           Re: This has nothing to do with CoD.rhubarb 4/15/12 5:07 p.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: This has nothing to do with CoD.uberfoop 4/15/12 5:47 p.m.
                                                                                                                       Re: This has nothing to do with CoD.rhubarb 4/15/12 6:04 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: The question everyone is dancing aroundCody Miller 4/15/12 5:20 p.m.
                                                                                                           Re: The question everyone is dancing aroundrhubarb 4/15/12 5:56 p.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: The question everyone is dancing aroundCody Miller 4/15/12 6:13 p.m.
                                                                                               Re: To clarifyLeviathan 4/15/12 4:01 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: To clarifyCody Miller 4/15/12 5:14 p.m.
                                                                                               Re: To clarifyLeviathan 4/15/12 10:10 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: To clarifyCody Miller 4/15/12 11:15 p.m.
                                                                                                           Re: To clarifyLeviathan 4/15/12 11:49 p.m.
                                                                                                                 leviathan's opinion makes mine redundant *NM*kidtsunami 4/16/12 12:13 a.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: To clarifyCody Miller 4/16/12 12:39 a.m.
                                                                                                                       Re: To clarifyLeviathan 4/16/12 2:08 a.m.
                                                                                                                             Re: To clarify343winks. 4/16/12 6:04 a.m.
                                                                                                                       Re: To clarifyLouis Wu 4/16/12 8:28 a.m.
                                                                                                                             Re: To clarifyRevenant1988 4/16/12 10:11 a.m.
                                                                                                                             ...........what is thisHawaiian Pig 4/16/12 12:33 p.m.
                                                                                                                                   Re: ...........what is thisLouis Wu 4/16/12 12:53 p.m.
                                                                                                                                         Re: ...........what is thisHawaiian Pig 4/16/12 1:14 p.m.
                                                                                                                             Re: To clarifyHawaiian Pig 4/16/12 12:46 p.m.
                                                                                                                                   Re: To clarifyLeviathan 4/16/12 2:11 p.m.
                                                                                                                             Re: To clarifyCody Miller 4/16/12 2:13 p.m.
                                                                                                                                   Re: To clarifyLeviathan 4/16/12 2:30 p.m.
                                                                                                                                         Re: To clarifyCody Miller 4/16/12 3:18 p.m.
                                                                                                                                               Re: To clarifyLeviathan 4/16/12 3:58 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                     This conversation has gone in an awkward directionuberfoop 4/16/12 4:11 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: This conversation has gone in an awkward direcLeviathan 4/16/12 4:32 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: This conversation has gone in an awkward direcMiguel Chavez 4/16/12 4:35 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: This conversation has gone in an awkward direcLeviathan 4/16/12 4:44 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: This conversation has gone in an awkward direcStephen L. (SoundEffect) 4/16/12 9:58 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: This conversation has gone in an awkward direcHawaiian Pig 4/16/12 5:36 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: This conversation has gone in an awkward direc343winks. 4/17/12 5:58 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: This conversation has gone in an awkward direcLeviathan 4/17/12 2:02 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: This conversation has gone in an awkward direcBeckx 4/17/12 2:22 p.m.
                                                                                                                                   Re: To clarifyLouis Wu 4/16/12 3:00 p.m.
                                                                                                                                         Re: To clarifyMiguel Chavez 4/16/12 3:28 p.m.
                                                                                                                                         Re: To clarify343winks. 4/17/12 5:24 a.m.
                                                                                                                                               Re: To clarifyLouis Wu 4/17/12 7:07 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                     Re: To clarifyCody Miller 4/17/12 12:13 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: To clarifyGeneral Vagueness 4/17/12 12:50 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: To clarifyHawaiian Pig 4/17/12 10:59 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: To clarifyuberfoop 4/18/12 12:08 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: To clarifyMiguel Chavez 4/17/12 1:21 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 GODWINNED *NM*Cody Miller 4/17/12 1:58 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: To clarifyLeviathan 4/17/12 2:19 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: To clarifyMiguel Chavez 4/17/12 3:51 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       That's a lousy safe-word, Mig. *NM*Anton P. Nym (aka Steve) 4/17/12 4:56 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: To clarifyHawaiian Pig 4/17/12 11:00 p.m.
                                                                                                                                               Re: To clarifyGeneral Vagueness 4/17/12 10:45 a.m.
                                                                                   Re: I'm gonna rename you Chicken Little.uberfoop 4/15/12 4:52 p.m.
                                               Change in Halo= GoodBWOLoneWolf 4/16/12 7:17 a.m.
                                                     Re: Change in Halo= GoodMetalingus627 4/16/12 10:48 a.m.
                                                           Re: Change in Halo= GoodMetalingus627 4/16/12 10:48 a.m.
                                         Now here's what I'm wonderingSonGoharotto 4/15/12 1:25 p.m.
                                               A tale of Spartan Points.NsU Soldier 4/15/12 5:44 p.m.
                                                     The Spartan Phone is ringing!SonGoharotto 4/15/12 9:19 p.m.
                                                           What if the Spartan phones... rang? *NM*Louis Wu 4/16/12 8:31 a.m.
                                                     Re: A tale of Spartan Points.General Vagueness 4/16/12 2:40 a.m.
                       Re: Change for change's sake.uberfoop 4/14/12 9:20 p.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*Kermit 4/15/12 8:37 p.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*General Vagueness 4/16/12 12:45 a.m.
     When threads get this long...Tiny 4/16/12 4:08 p.m.
           Re: When threads get this long...uberfoop 4/16/12 4:13 p.m.
           Re: When threads get this long...Schooly D 4/16/12 4:26 p.m.
           Re: When threads get this long...Miguel Chavez 4/16/12 4:34 p.m.
                 This.Urban Reflex 4/16/12 4:53 p.m.
                       Re: This.Quirel 4/16/12 6:06 p.m.
                 Re: When threads get this long...Tiny 4/16/12 10:36 p.m.
           This thread is too long. Here, I'll make it longerRC Master 4/16/12 6:51 p.m.
                 Re: This thread is too long. Here, I'll make it loMiguel Chavez 4/16/12 7:22 p.m.
           Coke tastes better from a can.Vandle Valsher 4/16/12 7:57 p.m.
                 Re: Coke tastes better from a can.Miguel Chavez 4/16/12 8:40 p.m.
                       Re: Coke tastes better from a can.Metalingus627 4/16/12 10:12 p.m.
                             Re: Coke tastes better from a can.Gravemind 4/16/12 11:28 p.m.



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