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Re: Change for change's sake.
Posted By: Cody MillerDate: 4/14/12 10:07 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Change for change's sake. (Gravemind)


: I would not appreciate being forced into a Skinner box where I have to level
: grind in order to have access to halfway decent gear and be able to fight
: on a level playing field with everyone else. Skinner box mechanisms are
: the absolute worst way to entice players to keep playing.

It is the worst way in terms of morality and making a quality game, but it is a good way if you don't care about either of those things. Like it or not, these techniques ARE effective at convincing players to play. So many people here admit they play for achievements, and you only have to look at the success of WoW, and soon Diablo 3, to realize that this shit works.

Part of the problem is that you have so many people playing games now who don't even like them. People who love the game holding their hand, giving them the illusion of choice and power, and vanquishing the enemy. But throw a real challenge their way, actual control and real decision making (the whole reason why games are interactive in the first place), and they won't even touch it. Give them the illusion of progress and accomplishment, and they will feel good.

Again, this is NOT HEALTHY. This is why our generation is shaping up to be the entitlement generation. We go to college and expect a job, because when our parents went to college it guaranteed them a job. Times have changed. We expect to live a lifestyle like our parents, even though that may not be sustainable in today's world. We expect to get entitlements when we retire, even though social security will not survive. We vote for shit on ballot initiatives in California, but don't want to pay for them, and wonder why the state is near bankruptcy. We are out sitting on our asses occupying wall street instead of actually solving the problems.

I believe a great many people play modern games, plagued by the shackles of contemporary 'good design', precisely because these games give it to you for nothing. You don't have to work, you just have to play. Don't have it yet? Just play a little longer.

Gaming has always been about overcoming challenge. Any game worth its salt taxes the player in some way. You don't watch the NFL because the players breeze down the field unopposed. You watch it because the opposition is the fiercest in the world. Millions do not watch Starcraft in Korea because the game drops weapons to the team down in points. They watch it because they want to see 2 players of awesome skill duke it out. Go is not played centuries later because its based on a dice roll or card draws, allowing anyone to win. It's played because it's incredibly deep and difficult to master.

But the beauty of these games, is that whatever your skill level, you can always challenge yourself and not be overwhelmed. You wouldn't play with Eli Manning right away. You play with your friend down the block. I don't play against Flash, I play against Hawaiian Pig. And likewise, you don't have to play on Legendary; you can play on Normal. All of the best games not only allow you to keep rising, but force you to better yourself if you wish to do so.

But here we are, a generation expecting things for nothing, so it doesn't surprise me that players don't want to work for their rewards. This attitude is why we are in a recession. It's why we are falling behind the world in science, mathematics, and innovation. It's why my future is less bright than that of my parents.

Modern game design is merely symptomatic of the atrophy of the work ethic and personal pride in American culture today. You do not see these types of game design decisions in Japanese action games for example. You do not see them in the foreign studios currently producing mostly excellent point and click adventures - a genre absolutely dominated by American developers in the 90s.

Anybody reading this can chime in and talk about playing for 'fun' and the like, but fun and challenge are fundamentally linked. Saying you don't care about challenge and you just play for 'fun' is like saying you want a handout. The beauty of the game like Halo, is that there were so many challenges one could undertake: playing on legendary, parsing the story, speedrunning, tricking and glitching, creating machinema, and LAN multiplayer. This doesn't even account for the challenges you could undertake OUTSIDE the scope of the game: artwork, fan fiction, rampant speculation, etc. The point is that playing on the hardest difficulty setting to 'beat' the game, or play against the best players in the world on a LAN, is NOT the only way to have fun through challenge.

The moment you tell yourself that you don't need to strive to be better, that you are fine the way you are, that as long as you merely keep going that it will work out for you, is the moment you stop being a successful human being. We live in a world where striving for greatness is not only its own reward, but produces a better world. We live in a world where being content and entitled results in no progress, both for the world, and a person's character.

It saddens me that the majority of people do not seem to value entertainment that tickles them creatively, intellectually, or physically. Gaming will become like hollywood sooner than you think: huge dumb blockbusters, or artsy fartsy circle jerk games. Very little with genuine passion.

If we take pride in ourselves, and in our time, then we can shift things back in society, and in our entertainment.


Message Index




Replies:

Present thoughts about the future *long*Hedgemony 4/11/12 9:44 p.m.
     I'm Grim, & this is my favorite post on the forum *NM*GrimBrother One 4/11/12 9:50 p.m.
     Hear hear! *NM*Das Kalk 4/11/12 9:53 p.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 4/11/12 10:16 p.m.
     Brilliantly well put, mirrors my own thoughts. *NM*Tiny 4/11/12 10:19 p.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*stabbim 4/11/12 10:23 p.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*bluerunner 4/11/12 10:26 p.m.
     well put *NM*kidtsunami 4/11/12 10:29 p.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*KP 4/11/12 10:31 p.m.
           Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*tucsonbatman 4/11/12 10:57 p.m.
           Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*DEEP NNN 4/12/12 6:37 a.m.
           Just you wait. You're next! :p *NM*rhubarb 4/12/12 10:57 a.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*breitzen 4/11/12 10:41 p.m.
           Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*Frankie 4/12/12 12:21 a.m.
                 Frankie's mental image of HBO until releaseThe Lionheart 4/12/12 12:36 a.m.
                 You dun good kid, great post. *NM*Pebbles 4/12/12 12:55 a.m.
           Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*Frankie 4/12/12 12:26 a.m.
                 Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*Quirel 4/12/12 12:46 a.m.
                 Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*Das Kalk 4/12/12 10:52 a.m.
                 Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*Metalingus627 4/12/12 5:00 p.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*kanbo 4/11/12 10:52 p.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*Vic DeLeon 4/11/12 10:56 p.m.
           Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*Der Flatulator 4/16/12 9:44 a.m.
                 Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*Der Flatulator 4/16/12 9:49 a.m.
                       Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*RC Master 4/16/12 10:58 a.m.
     We have seen the angst before.Captain Spark 4/11/12 11:00 p.m.
     AgreedAnton P. Nym (aka Steve) 4/11/12 11:04 p.m.
     Sing it! Truth. *NM*yakaman 4/11/12 11:11 p.m.
     Well put, indeed. *NM*Leviathan 4/11/12 11:22 p.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*uberfoop 4/11/12 11:35 p.m.
           Re: Change is gouda. *NM*Hedgemony 4/11/12 11:37 p.m.
                 Halo 4 LE = Wheel of smoked gouda? *NM*uberfoop 4/12/12 12:09 a.m.
     Thank you again...GrimBrother One 4/11/12 11:49 p.m.
           Re: Thank you again...Tiny 4/12/12 7:53 a.m.
     Why Halo 4 will be a very bad game *Long, IMGs*Schooly D 4/12/12 12:07 a.m.
     Exquisitely well put, Hedge.The Lionheart 4/12/12 12:23 a.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*Morhek 4/12/12 12:36 a.m.
           Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*stabbim 4/12/12 12:48 a.m.
                 Can a hipster hate hating? Is that possible? *NM*The Lionheart 4/12/12 12:56 a.m.
                       I for one, can't wait for E3Pebbles 4/12/12 1:01 a.m.
                       Love is the new hate. *NM*Kalamari 4/12/12 1:25 a.m.
     Oh Yeah?Bones 4/12/12 1:21 a.m.
           Hedgemony: Voice of Reason and Love *NM*thebruce0 4/12/12 1:44 a.m.
     I'm finding it harder to express my thoughts...Phoenix_9286 4/12/12 2:16 a.m.
           Re: I'm finding it harder to express my thoughts..NsU Soldier 4/12/12 5:24 a.m.
     Josh Holmes took notice of this on twitter. *NM*Bryan Newman 4/12/12 2:17 a.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*BlueNinja 4/12/12 5:36 a.m.
           Of course you still have a place here.The Lionheart 4/12/12 11:45 a.m.
           Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*General Vagueness 4/16/12 6:54 p.m.
     I don't have favorites, but you're my favorite. *NM*Louis Wu 4/12/12 6:44 a.m.
     Nicely put :) *NM*Ciarán 4/12/12 6:48 a.m.
     Well said. *NM*Beckx 4/12/12 7:23 a.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*DEEP NNN 4/12/12 7:37 a.m.
           Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*SonofMacPhisto 4/12/12 8:38 a.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*CaneCutter 4/12/12 8:06 a.m.
     Completely Agree (Glad Someone Said It!)ChrisTheeCrappy 4/12/12 8:57 a.m.
           Re: Completely Agree (Glad Someone Said It!)JDQuackers 4/12/12 12:18 p.m.
     i agreeiForge 4/12/12 10:37 a.m.
     Finally!Der Flatulator 4/12/12 10:45 a.m.
           Re: Finally!Der Flatulator 4/12/12 10:54 a.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*Tawpgun 4/12/12 10:58 a.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*Postmortem 4/12/12 10:58 a.m.
     Hedge is a HammerImpervium 4/12/12 11:08 a.m.
     Well met, sir.dogsounds 4/12/12 12:08 p.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*padraig08 4/12/12 12:10 p.m.
     Best thing I've read on the net in a long while!LostSpartan987 4/12/12 12:36 p.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*Cody Miller 4/12/12 3:23 p.m.
           Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*DEEP NNN 4/12/12 4:03 p.m.
           Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*Hawaiian Pig 4/12/12 11:30 p.m.
           your thoughts on "social"kidtsunami 4/13/12 2:26 a.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*MacGyver10 4/12/12 3:31 p.m.
     You made my day, HedgeCortanaVII 4/12/12 4:36 p.m.
     Amen. *NM*Lawnmower172 4/12/12 5:16 p.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*GreyThor 4/12/12 8:51 p.m.
           Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*Quantum 4/12/12 11:04 p.m.
     My thoughts on this situation.Gravemind 4/13/12 6:31 p.m.
           Re: My thoughts on this situation.Gravemind 4/13/12 6:39 p.m.
           Re: My thoughts on this situation.343winks. 4/14/12 12:19 p.m.
     Like you've spoken for me. *Sorta Long*DrDoctor 4/13/12 11:29 p.m.
     Change *slightly-long*Der Flatulator 4/14/12 8:50 a.m.
           Re: Change *slightly-long*DEEP NNN 4/14/12 9:03 a.m.
           It isn't all good.rhubarb 4/14/12 10:40 a.m.
                 Re: It isn't all good.serpx 4/14/12 2:45 p.m.
                       Re: It isn't all good.rhubarb 4/14/12 3:29 p.m.
           Change for change's sake.Gravemind 4/14/12 7:11 p.m.
                 Re: Change for change's sake.Harmanimus 4/14/12 7:59 p.m.
                       Re: Change for change's sake.Gravemind 4/14/12 8:32 p.m.
                             Re: Change for change's sake.Cody Miller 4/14/12 10:07 p.m.
                                   Re: Change for change's sake.Leviathan 4/14/12 10:52 p.m.
                                         Re: Change for change's sake.Cody Miller 4/15/12 12:20 a.m.
                                         Re: Change for change's sake.SonofMacPhisto 4/15/12 9:04 a.m.
                                               Re: Change for change's sake.Leviathan 4/15/12 1:36 p.m.
                                                     Re: Change for change's sake.Cody Miller 4/15/12 2:18 p.m.
                                                           Re: Change for change's sake.Hawaiian Pig 4/15/12 2:29 p.m.
                                                           Re: Change for change's sake.Leviathan 4/15/12 2:33 p.m.
                                                                 To HP and Levirhubarb 4/15/12 3:01 p.m.
                                                                       Not at allLeviathan 4/15/12 3:15 p.m.
                                                                             Re: Not at allrhubarb 4/15/12 3:27 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: Not at allLeviathan 4/15/12 3:47 p.m.
                                                                                         Warning: Unintended rantMetalingus627 4/15/12 5:13 p.m.
                                                                                               Alienation is unavoidablerhubarb 4/15/12 5:31 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: Alienation is unavoidableMetalingus627 4/15/12 5:47 p.m.
                                                                                                           Because A sucks and B is an egg, obviously.rhubarb 4/15/12 6:31 p.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: Because A sucks and B is an egg, obviously.Metalingus627 4/15/12 7:04 p.m.
                                                                                                                       My point is...rhubarb 4/15/12 7:55 p.m.
                                                                                                                             Re: My point is...DHalo 4/15/12 8:24 p.m.
                                                                                                                                   Re: My point is...rhubarb 4/15/12 8:45 p.m.
                                                                                                                                   Re: My point is...Cody Miller 4/15/12 9:04 p.m.
                                                                                                                                         Re: My point is...DHalo 4/15/12 9:55 p.m.
                                                                                                                                               Re: My point is...uberfoop 4/15/12 10:11 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                     Re: My point is...DHalo 4/15/12 10:18 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: My point is...uberfoop 4/15/12 10:26 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: My point is...DHalo 4/15/12 11:01 p.m.
                                                                                                                                         Re: My point is...DEEP NNN 4/16/12 6:46 a.m.
                                                                                                                                               Re: My point is...RC Master 4/16/12 11:12 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                     Re: My point is...DEEP NNN 4/16/12 11:52 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: to add to thisRevenant1988 4/16/12 12:25 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 PirateUnicorns.bungie.orgRC Master 4/16/12 6:23 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: PirateUnicorns.bungie.orgRevenant1988 4/16/12 7:39 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: PirateUnicorns.bungie.orgthebruce0 4/17/12 11:18 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: PirateUnicorns.bungie.orgRC Master 4/17/12 9:11 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: My point is...RC Master 4/16/12 6:09 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: My point is...DEEP NNN 4/16/12 7:21 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: My point is...uberfoop 4/16/12 7:54 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: My point is...DEEP NNN 4/16/12 8:01 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: My point is...uberfoop 4/16/12 8:06 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: My point is...General Vagueness 4/16/12 10:43 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: My point is...DEEP NNN 4/17/12 7:54 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: My point is...General Vagueness 4/17/12 10:51 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: My point is...DEEP NNN 4/17/12 11:02 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: My point is...General Vagueness 4/17/12 12:37 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: My point is...DEEP NNN 4/17/12 1:32 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: My point is...RC Master 4/17/12 8:33 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: My point is...DEEP NNN 4/17/12 10:43 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                     Re: My point is...Metalingus627 4/16/12 2:52 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: My point is...uberfoop 4/16/12 3:08 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: My point is...Metalingus627 4/16/12 10:18 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: My point is...Gravemind 4/16/12 3:17 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: My point is...Quirel 4/16/12 6:17 p.m.
                                   Re: Change for change's sake.SonGoharotto 4/14/12 11:29 p.m.
                                         Re: Change for change's sake.Hawaiian Pig 4/15/12 12:53 a.m.
                                               I have my moments *NM*SonGoharotto 4/15/12 8:08 a.m.
                                   Re: Change for change's sake.343winks. 4/15/12 3:55 a.m.
                                         Re: Change for change's sake.RC Master 4/15/12 10:32 a.m.
                                               Re: Change for change's sake.Hedgemony 4/15/12 12:30 p.m.
                                                     Re: Change for change's sake.343winks. 4/16/12 4:50 a.m.
                                               Re: Change for change's sake.343winks. 4/16/12 4:45 a.m.
                             I'm gonna rename you Chicken Little.Louis Wu 4/15/12 8:31 a.m.
                                   Just playing Devil's advocate here...SonGoharotto 4/15/12 9:23 a.m.
                                         Re: Just playing Devil's advocate here...Louis Wu 4/15/12 9:43 a.m.
                                               Re: Just playing Devil's advocate here...davidfuchs 4/15/12 9:53 a.m.
                                               Re: Just playing Devil's advocate here...SonGoharotto 4/15/12 11:30 a.m.
                                                     Re: Just playing Devil's advocate here...Anton P. Nym (aka Steve) 4/15/12 12:13 p.m.
                                                     Re: Just playing Devil's advocate here...General Vagueness 4/16/12 7:05 p.m.
                                   Re: I'm gonna rename you Chicken Little.Gravemind 4/15/12 12:38 p.m.
                                         Re: I'm gonna rename you Chicken Little.Louis Wu 4/15/12 12:48 p.m.
                                               Re: I'm gonna rename you Chicken Little.Cody Miller 4/15/12 1:04 p.m.
                                                     Re: I'm gonna rename you Chicken Little.Leviathan 4/15/12 1:47 p.m.
                                                           Re: I'm gonna rename you Chicken Little.Cody Miller 4/15/12 2:16 p.m.
                                                                 Re: I'm gonna rename you Chicken Little.Leviathan 4/15/12 2:27 p.m.
                                                                       Re: I'm gonna rename you Chicken Little.Hawaiian Pig 4/15/12 2:28 p.m.
                                                                             Re: I'm gonna rename you Chicken Little.Hawaiian Pig 4/15/12 2:31 p.m.
                                                                             Re: I'm gonna rename you Chicken Little.Leviathan 4/15/12 2:35 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: I'm gonna rename you Chicken Little.Hawaiian Pig 4/15/12 2:54 p.m.
                                                                                   To clarifyLeviathan 4/15/12 3:01 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: To clarifyrhubarb 4/15/12 3:07 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: To clarifySchooly D 4/15/12 3:40 p.m.
                                                                                               The question everyone is dancing aroundrhubarb 4/15/12 3:48 p.m.
                                                                                                     This has nothing to do with CoD.uberfoop 4/15/12 4:41 p.m.
                                                                                                           Re: This has nothing to do with CoD.rhubarb 4/15/12 5:07 p.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: This has nothing to do with CoD.uberfoop 4/15/12 5:47 p.m.
                                                                                                                       Re: This has nothing to do with CoD.rhubarb 4/15/12 6:04 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: The question everyone is dancing aroundCody Miller 4/15/12 5:20 p.m.
                                                                                                           Re: The question everyone is dancing aroundrhubarb 4/15/12 5:56 p.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: The question everyone is dancing aroundCody Miller 4/15/12 6:13 p.m.
                                                                                               Re: To clarifyLeviathan 4/15/12 4:01 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: To clarifyCody Miller 4/15/12 5:14 p.m.
                                                                                               Re: To clarifyLeviathan 4/15/12 10:10 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: To clarifyCody Miller 4/15/12 11:15 p.m.
                                                                                                           Re: To clarifyLeviathan 4/15/12 11:49 p.m.
                                                                                                                 leviathan's opinion makes mine redundant *NM*kidtsunami 4/16/12 12:13 a.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: To clarifyCody Miller 4/16/12 12:39 a.m.
                                                                                                                       Re: To clarifyLeviathan 4/16/12 2:08 a.m.
                                                                                                                             Re: To clarify343winks. 4/16/12 6:04 a.m.
                                                                                                                       Re: To clarifyLouis Wu 4/16/12 8:28 a.m.
                                                                                                                             Re: To clarifyRevenant1988 4/16/12 10:11 a.m.
                                                                                                                             ...........what is thisHawaiian Pig 4/16/12 12:33 p.m.
                                                                                                                                   Re: ...........what is thisLouis Wu 4/16/12 12:53 p.m.
                                                                                                                                         Re: ...........what is thisHawaiian Pig 4/16/12 1:14 p.m.
                                                                                                                             Re: To clarifyHawaiian Pig 4/16/12 12:46 p.m.
                                                                                                                                   Re: To clarifyLeviathan 4/16/12 2:11 p.m.
                                                                                                                             Re: To clarifyCody Miller 4/16/12 2:13 p.m.
                                                                                                                                   Re: To clarifyLeviathan 4/16/12 2:30 p.m.
                                                                                                                                         Re: To clarifyCody Miller 4/16/12 3:18 p.m.
                                                                                                                                               Re: To clarifyLeviathan 4/16/12 3:58 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                     This conversation has gone in an awkward directionuberfoop 4/16/12 4:11 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: This conversation has gone in an awkward direcLeviathan 4/16/12 4:32 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: This conversation has gone in an awkward direcMiguel Chavez 4/16/12 4:35 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: This conversation has gone in an awkward direcLeviathan 4/16/12 4:44 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: This conversation has gone in an awkward direcStephen L. (SoundEffect) 4/16/12 9:58 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: This conversation has gone in an awkward direcHawaiian Pig 4/16/12 5:36 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: This conversation has gone in an awkward direc343winks. 4/17/12 5:58 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: This conversation has gone in an awkward direcLeviathan 4/17/12 2:02 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: This conversation has gone in an awkward direcBeckx 4/17/12 2:22 p.m.
                                                                                                                                   Re: To clarifyLouis Wu 4/16/12 3:00 p.m.
                                                                                                                                         Re: To clarifyMiguel Chavez 4/16/12 3:28 p.m.
                                                                                                                                         Re: To clarify343winks. 4/17/12 5:24 a.m.
                                                                                                                                               Re: To clarifyLouis Wu 4/17/12 7:07 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                     Re: To clarifyCody Miller 4/17/12 12:13 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: To clarifyGeneral Vagueness 4/17/12 12:50 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: To clarifyHawaiian Pig 4/17/12 10:59 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: To clarifyuberfoop 4/18/12 12:08 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: To clarifyMiguel Chavez 4/17/12 1:21 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 GODWINNED *NM*Cody Miller 4/17/12 1:58 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: To clarifyLeviathan 4/17/12 2:19 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: To clarifyMiguel Chavez 4/17/12 3:51 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                       That's a lousy safe-word, Mig. *NM*Anton P. Nym (aka Steve) 4/17/12 4:56 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: To clarifyHawaiian Pig 4/17/12 11:00 p.m.
                                                                                                                                               Re: To clarifyGeneral Vagueness 4/17/12 10:45 a.m.
                                                                                   Re: I'm gonna rename you Chicken Little.uberfoop 4/15/12 4:52 p.m.
                                               Change in Halo= GoodBWOLoneWolf 4/16/12 7:17 a.m.
                                                     Re: Change in Halo= GoodMetalingus627 4/16/12 10:48 a.m.
                                                           Re: Change in Halo= GoodMetalingus627 4/16/12 10:48 a.m.
                                         Now here's what I'm wonderingSonGoharotto 4/15/12 1:25 p.m.
                                               A tale of Spartan Points.NsU Soldier 4/15/12 5:44 p.m.
                                                     The Spartan Phone is ringing!SonGoharotto 4/15/12 9:19 p.m.
                                                           What if the Spartan phones... rang? *NM*Louis Wu 4/16/12 8:31 a.m.
                                                     Re: A tale of Spartan Points.General Vagueness 4/16/12 2:40 a.m.
                       Re: Change for change's sake.uberfoop 4/14/12 9:20 p.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*Kermit 4/15/12 8:37 p.m.
     Re: Present thoughts about the future *long*General Vagueness 4/16/12 12:45 a.m.
     When threads get this long...Tiny 4/16/12 4:08 p.m.
           Re: When threads get this long...uberfoop 4/16/12 4:13 p.m.
           Re: When threads get this long...Schooly D 4/16/12 4:26 p.m.
           Re: When threads get this long...Miguel Chavez 4/16/12 4:34 p.m.
                 This.Urban Reflex 4/16/12 4:53 p.m.
                       Re: This.Quirel 4/16/12 6:06 p.m.
                 Re: When threads get this long...Tiny 4/16/12 10:36 p.m.
           This thread is too long. Here, I'll make it longerRC Master 4/16/12 6:51 p.m.
                 Re: This thread is too long. Here, I'll make it loMiguel Chavez 4/16/12 7:22 p.m.
           Coke tastes better from a can.Vandle Valsher 4/16/12 7:57 p.m.
                 Re: Coke tastes better from a can.Miguel Chavez 4/16/12 8:40 p.m.
                       Re: Coke tastes better from a can.Metalingus627 4/16/12 10:12 p.m.
                             Re: Coke tastes better from a can.Gravemind 4/16/12 11:28 p.m.



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