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Re: yeah because sorry, a one weapon game
Posted By: Gravemind <kuukan_no_kage@yahoo.com>	Date: 3/1/12 1:53 a.m.
In Response To: Re: yeah because sorry, a one weapon game (uberfoop) : Maybe, actually. I've never seen proof that optimal rate of fire cooresponds : to letting the reticle fall completely on-target to 100% ensure a hit. But : more importantly, regardless of how you fire, there's always the fact that : enemy shot behaviour may not be deterministic; while this certainly tends : toward falling in your favour for the obvious reasons, and while I believe : that the effect of the randomness here is usually probably fairly minor, : it's a random aspect that is out of your control and which can affect the : outcome of individual encounters. The DMR's max shot spread when pacing your shots is very tiny, around 0.05°, which is a quarter the shot spread of the M6D. That spread only becomes significant at extreme ranges (100 meters or more; for example, at 125 m, the spread pattern is the size of a soccer ball) where the DMR is less effective anyway. At 20 meters, the shot pattern is the size of an Eisenhower dollar, while at 50 meters it's a bit bigger than a baseball... still tiny compared to a Spartan's head. OTOH, the M6D's shot spread resulted in a pattern four times bigger than those things at those ranges. So, the DMR is not 100% deterministic, but after you take into account aim assist it's close enough at all the ranges that matter, and it's a hell of a lot more deterministic than the M6D or BR. You just have to pace your shots to get that determinism. : Furthermore, I don't think you're going to convince anyone without a very : thorough argument that Halo actually needs more than a few weapons in : play at a time to work. I've seen it constantly demanded that weapons be : built for particular range groups, but I've never seen an argument as to : any real gameplay-wise benefit of this. It sounds like a very : one-dimensional approach to balance, a sort of rock/paper/scissors in lieu : of complex interactions, something which actually tends to come about most : naturally in minimalistic sandboxes. I've yet to see a convincing argument that Halo MP should be DMRs/BRs/M6Ds 24/7. Besides, I can think of several reasons for a wide variety of weapons. For example, if the game revolved around one or two guns, it would get boring, quick. Having many distinct weapons offers opportunities for many play styles. If the DMR were the only standard issue weapon, combat would become a dull, rote affair of popping headshots all day. : Not that I would argue that weapons necessarily shouldn't have range-falloff : in some way or another. But while bloom can certainly be an interesting : system, I'm surprised at people who consider it to be, in general , a : more elegant solution that things like projectile weapons (which, contrary : to the beliefs of evidently everyone at Waypoint, work fine in modern : networking schemes in games with non peer-to-peer hosting). All firearms fire projectiles. You might want to elaborate. Anyhow, I think bloom is a very good solution towards the question of balance vs. determinism. I've already explained the tradeoffs and everything having to do with bloom and how it affects weapons like the DMR, so I'm not going to repeat it. : Finally, I remain baffled by the demand that gameplay should necessarily be : non-deterministic. It strikes me as very similar to the argument that : mechanical complexity and complexity of the gameplay experience are always : proportional; it's an extreme case of equivocation, and equivocation with : the word "gameplay." When people talk about deterministic : gameplay, they're saying that for a given set of inputs, a particular : unique set of outputs should result. However, people do not play : completely consistently; the sets of inputs are much less predictable. If : Reach's bloom were replaced with some other distance drop-off effect that : worked in somewhat comparable ways user-side (i.e. simply dropping damage : with range), map movement, encounter tactics, and other similar things : probably wouldn't change much (beyond a few obvious effects of this : particular system, like it being a bit easier to annoy people by pinging : them). Narcogen, who hasn't posted here in a while, has made some good arguments regarding determinism in games. In fact, he's talked to you about the subject before. Of course, it's apparent he didn't convince you then, so I don't suppose there's any way I'd be able to convince you now. : Not that I necessarily think the TU was a good choice for Reach. I don't hate : it, but it didn't really fix any of my issues with the game, and it goes : against Reach's grain. But as far as the capacity for Overdoziz's approach : to work well in general, I'm not finding the arguments against it to be : particularly convincing. Nobody seems to be arguing against his actual : arguments, which is probably one of the reasons this conversation keeps : going in circles (an exacerbating factor might be that few are : articulating their thoughts very thoroughly, though). How do you argue with "adapt" and "Automatics suck"? Those aren't arguments, so one can't exactly counter-argue it. The gist of his "argument" is that Halo MP should be an entirely skill-based affair, as if it were a professional sport or something. I disagree with that. Things like "skill" and "competition" take back seat towards providing a fun and balanced gameplay experience for a wide base of players with varying play styles, skill levels, and attitudes toward MP gaming. It shouldn't devolve into a situation where getting 5sk's with a bloom-less (or nearly so) DMR is the only thing players need to be proficient at (and indeed DMR proficiency would be absolutely mandatory, as it essentially is in TU settings). That might work for all the MLG types, wannabe pros, and "Stop Having Fun" Guys of the world, but it doesn't work for the wider player base.

The Dark Sangheili

Message Index

343i has killed my interest in Reach MM.	Gravemind	2/28/12 7:35 p.m.
Opinions are fun.	bryan newman	2/28/12 7:49 p.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	FyreWulff	2/28/12 7:52 p.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	bryan newman	2/28/12 7:55 p.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	kidtsunami	2/28/12 8:03 p.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	bryan newman	2/28/12 8:07 p.m.
yeah, he shouldn't either	kidtsunami	2/28/12 8:12 p.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	Avateur	2/28/12 8:14 p.m.
Different strokes I suppose, right? *NM*	bryan newman	2/28/12 8:16 p.m.
Exactly	Avateur	2/28/12 8:19 p.m.
Re: Exactly	Hoovaloov	2/28/12 9:25 p.m.
Re: Exactly	Overdoziz	2/28/12 9:27 p.m.
Re: Exactly	Avateur	2/28/12 9:56 p.m.
Re: Exactly	DEEP NNN	2/28/12 10:18 p.m.
Re: Exactly	Hoovaloov	2/28/12 10:34 p.m.
Also	FyreWulff	2/28/12 10:00 p.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	Avateur	2/28/12 8:10 p.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	Hoovaloov	2/28/12 8:37 p.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	FyreWulff	2/28/12 8:40 p.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	Hoovaloov	2/28/12 8:50 p.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	FyreWulff	2/28/12 9:34 p.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	Hoovaloov	2/28/12 10:07 p.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	FyreWulff	2/28/12 10:45 p.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	Hoovaloov	2/28/12 10:54 p.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	RC Master	2/29/12 11:05 a.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	Hoovaloov	2/29/12 4:16 p.m.
Minor Correction	Hoovaloov	2/29/12 4:27 p.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	RC Master	3/1/12 7:22 a.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	yakaman	3/1/12 1:08 p.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	DEEP NNN	2/28/12 10:15 p.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	FyreWulff	2/29/12 12:12 a.m.
TU is sweet.	Overdoziz	2/28/12 8:30 p.m.
Re: TU is sweet.	7he grunt w/a plasma pistol	2/28/12 8:35 p.m.
Re: TU is sweet.	bryan newman	2/28/12 8:36 p.m.
Re: TU is sweet.	Overdoziz	2/28/12 8:38 p.m.
Fixed: TU is sheet.	Hyokin	2/28/12 9:05 p.m.
No more blanket statements please. *NM*	Kalamari	2/28/12 9:16 p.m.
But I'm cold :( *NM*	kornman00	2/28/12 9:44 p.m.
Re: Fixed: TU is sheet.	Overdoziz	2/28/12 9:19 p.m.
Re: Fixed: TU is sheet.	Hyokin	2/28/12 9:38 p.m.
Re: Fixed: TU is sheet.	Overdoziz	2/28/12 9:43 p.m.
Re: Fixed: TU is sheet.	Avateur	2/28/12 9:58 p.m.
That's no irony! *NM*	uberfoop	2/28/12 10:03 p.m.
You're right :( *NM*	Avateur	2/28/12 10:06 p.m.
I think the irony was the part made of iron. *NM*	Hyokin	2/28/12 10:10 p.m.
It's a space station! *NM*	SonofMacPhisto	2/28/12 10:11 p.m.
Damn! Beaten to the punch!	LostSpartan987	2/29/12 8:29 a.m.
It all makes sense now. *NM*	Overdoziz	2/29/12 9:08 a.m.
Re: Fixed: TU is sheet.	Gravemind	2/29/12 12:55 p.m.
Re: Fixed: TU is sheet.	Overdoziz	2/29/12 1:12 p.m.
Re: TU is sweet.	RC Master	2/29/12 11:09 a.m.
Exactly! *NM*	Hyokin	2/29/12 11:11 a.m.
Turnabout is fair play. *NM*	Azo 'Galvat	2/29/12 1:15 p.m.
Re: TU is sweet.	Overdoziz	2/29/12 1:34 p.m.
Re: TU is sweet.	Hyokin	2/29/12 1:37 p.m.
Re: TU is sweet.	Overdoziz	2/29/12 1:53 p.m.
Re: TU is sweet.	RC Master	3/1/12 6:24 a.m.
Re: TU is sweet.	Gravemind	2/29/12 1:59 p.m.
Re: TU is sweet.	Schooly D	2/29/12 2:24 p.m.
Re: Tonight, in Night Springs. *NM*	Beckx	2/29/12 2:34 p.m.
yeah because sorry, a one weapon game	kidtsunami	2/29/12 3:31 p.m.
Re: yeah because sorry, a one weapon game	Schooly D	2/29/12 3:44 p.m.
Re: yeah because sorry, a one weapon game	Overdoziz	2/29/12 4:20 p.m.
Re: yeah because sorry, a one weapon game	kidtsunami	2/29/12 5:01 p.m.
I'm also waiting on the	kidtsunami	2/29/12 5:20 p.m.
Re: I'm also waiting on the	Avateur	2/29/12 9:14 p.m.
Re: I'm also waiting on the	Avateur	2/29/12 9:16 p.m.
Re: yeah because sorry, a one weapon game	Gravemind	2/29/12 6:21 p.m.
Re: yeah because sorry, a one weapon game	uberfoop	2/29/12 7:15 p.m.
Re: yeah because sorry, a one weapon game	Gravemind	3/1/12 1:53 a.m.
Re: yeah because sorry, a one weapon game	uberfoop	3/1/12 3:16 a.m.
Re: yeah because sorry, a one weapon game	Schooly D	3/1/12 2:01 a.m.
Re: yeah because sorry, a one weapon game	Gravemind	3/1/12 3:29 a.m.
Re: TU is sweet.	Overdoziz	2/29/12 4:26 p.m.
Re: TU is sweet.	Gravemind	2/29/12 6:00 p.m.
Re: TU is sweet.	kidtsunami	2/29/12 6:44 p.m.
Re: TU is sweet.	Overdoziz	2/29/12 6:55 p.m.
Jason... hugs... NOW. *NM*	Hyokin	3/1/12 12:53 a.m.
Is it a b-day hug? *NM*	Gravemind	3/1/12 1:56 a.m.
I guess... :p *NM*	Hyokin	3/1/12 11:12 a.m.
Re: 343i has killed my interest in Reach MM.	SEspider	2/28/12 10:18 p.m.
Re: 343i has killed my interest in Reach MM.	dogcom	3/3/12 11:52 a.m.
Re: 343i has killed my interest in Reach MM.	Grizzlei	3/3/12 1:41 p.m.
This made me cry a little. :( *NM*	Pkmnrulz240	3/3/12 2:08 p.m.