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Re: yeah because sorry, a one weapon game
Posted By: uberfoop <atkinso2@seattleu.edu>	Date: 2/29/12 7:15 p.m.
In Response To: Re: yeah because sorry, a one weapon game (Gravemind) : How many times do I have to say it? The DMR in vanilla Reach is deterministic : if you PACE. YOUR. FREAKING. SHOTS! Is that so hard to understand? Maybe, actually. I've never seen proof that optimal rate of fire cooresponds to letting the reticle fall completely on-target to 100% ensure a hit. But more importantly, regardless of how you fire, there's always the fact that enemy shot behaviour may not be deterministic; while this certainly tends toward falling in your favour for the obvious reasons, and while I believe that the effect of the randomness here is usually probably fairly minor, it's a random aspect that is out of your control and which can affect the outcome of individual encounters. Furthermore, I don't think you're going to convince anyone without a very thorough argument that Halo actually needs more than a few weapons in play at a time to work. I've seen it constantly demanded that weapons be built for particular range groups, but I've never seen an argument as to any real gameplay-wise benefit of this. It sounds like a very one-dimensional approach to balance, a sort of rock/paper/scissors in lieu of complex interactions, something which actually tends to come about most naturally in minimalistic sandboxes. Not that I would argue that weapons necessarily shouldn't have range-falloff in some way or another. But while bloom can certainly be an interesting system, I'm surprised at people who consider it to be, in general, a more elegant solution that things like projectile weapons (which, contrary to the beliefs of evidently everyone at Waypoint, work fine in modern networking schemes in games with non peer-to-peer hosting). Finally, I remain baffled by the demand that gameplay should necessarily be non-deterministic. It strikes me as very similar to the argument that mechanical complexity and complexity of the gameplay experience are always proportional; it's an extreme case of equivocation, and equivocation with the word "gameplay." When people talk about deterministic gameplay, they're saying that for a given set of inputs, a particular unique set of outputs should result. However, people do not play completely consistently; the sets of inputs are much less predictable. If Reach's bloom were replaced with some other distance drop-off effect that worked in somewhat comparable ways user-side (i.e. simply dropping damage with range), map movement, encounter tactics, and other similar things probably wouldn't change much (beyond a few obvious effects of this particular system, like it being a bit easier to annoy people by pinging them). //==================== Not that I necessarily think the TU was a good choice for Reach. I don't hate it, but it didn't really fix any of my issues with the game, and it goes against Reach's grain. But as far as the capacity for Overdoziz's approach to work well in general, I'm not finding the arguments against it to be particularly convincing. Nobody seems to be arguing against his actual arguments, which is probably one of the reasons this conversation keeps going in circles (an exacerbating factor might be that few are articulating their thoughts very thoroughly, though).

Message Index

343i has killed my interest in Reach MM.	Gravemind	2/28/12 7:35 p.m.
Opinions are fun.	bryan newman	2/28/12 7:49 p.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	FyreWulff	2/28/12 7:52 p.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	bryan newman	2/28/12 7:55 p.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	kidtsunami	2/28/12 8:03 p.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	bryan newman	2/28/12 8:07 p.m.
yeah, he shouldn't either	kidtsunami	2/28/12 8:12 p.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	Avateur	2/28/12 8:14 p.m.
Different strokes I suppose, right? *NM*	bryan newman	2/28/12 8:16 p.m.
Exactly	Avateur	2/28/12 8:19 p.m.
Re: Exactly	Hoovaloov	2/28/12 9:25 p.m.
Re: Exactly	Overdoziz	2/28/12 9:27 p.m.
Re: Exactly	Avateur	2/28/12 9:56 p.m.
Re: Exactly	DEEP NNN	2/28/12 10:18 p.m.
Re: Exactly	Hoovaloov	2/28/12 10:34 p.m.
Also	FyreWulff	2/28/12 10:00 p.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	Avateur	2/28/12 8:10 p.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	Hoovaloov	2/28/12 8:37 p.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	FyreWulff	2/28/12 8:40 p.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	Hoovaloov	2/28/12 8:50 p.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	FyreWulff	2/28/12 9:34 p.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	Hoovaloov	2/28/12 10:07 p.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	FyreWulff	2/28/12 10:45 p.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	Hoovaloov	2/28/12 10:54 p.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	RC Master	2/29/12 11:05 a.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	Hoovaloov	2/29/12 4:16 p.m.
Minor Correction	Hoovaloov	2/29/12 4:27 p.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	RC Master	3/1/12 7:22 a.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	yakaman	3/1/12 1:08 p.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	DEEP NNN	2/28/12 10:15 p.m.
Re: Opinions are fun.	FyreWulff	2/29/12 12:12 a.m.
TU is sweet.	Overdoziz	2/28/12 8:30 p.m.
Re: TU is sweet.	7he grunt w/a plasma pistol	2/28/12 8:35 p.m.
Re: TU is sweet.	bryan newman	2/28/12 8:36 p.m.
Re: TU is sweet.	Overdoziz	2/28/12 8:38 p.m.
Fixed: TU is sheet.	Hyokin	2/28/12 9:05 p.m.
No more blanket statements please. *NM*	Kalamari	2/28/12 9:16 p.m.
But I'm cold :( *NM*	kornman00	2/28/12 9:44 p.m.
Re: Fixed: TU is sheet.	Overdoziz	2/28/12 9:19 p.m.
Re: Fixed: TU is sheet.	Hyokin	2/28/12 9:38 p.m.
Re: Fixed: TU is sheet.	Overdoziz	2/28/12 9:43 p.m.
Re: Fixed: TU is sheet.	Avateur	2/28/12 9:58 p.m.
That's no irony! *NM*	uberfoop	2/28/12 10:03 p.m.
You're right :( *NM*	Avateur	2/28/12 10:06 p.m.
I think the irony was the part made of iron. *NM*	Hyokin	2/28/12 10:10 p.m.
It's a space station! *NM*	SonofMacPhisto	2/28/12 10:11 p.m.
Damn! Beaten to the punch!	LostSpartan987	2/29/12 8:29 a.m.
It all makes sense now. *NM*	Overdoziz	2/29/12 9:08 a.m.
Re: Fixed: TU is sheet.	Gravemind	2/29/12 12:55 p.m.
Re: Fixed: TU is sheet.	Overdoziz	2/29/12 1:12 p.m.
Re: TU is sweet.	RC Master	2/29/12 11:09 a.m.
Exactly! *NM*	Hyokin	2/29/12 11:11 a.m.
Turnabout is fair play. *NM*	Azo 'Galvat	2/29/12 1:15 p.m.
Re: TU is sweet.	Overdoziz	2/29/12 1:34 p.m.
Re: TU is sweet.	Hyokin	2/29/12 1:37 p.m.
Re: TU is sweet.	Overdoziz	2/29/12 1:53 p.m.
Re: TU is sweet.	RC Master	3/1/12 6:24 a.m.
Re: TU is sweet.	Gravemind	2/29/12 1:59 p.m.
Re: TU is sweet.	Schooly D	2/29/12 2:24 p.m.
Re: Tonight, in Night Springs. *NM*	Beckx	2/29/12 2:34 p.m.
yeah because sorry, a one weapon game	kidtsunami	2/29/12 3:31 p.m.
Re: yeah because sorry, a one weapon game	Schooly D	2/29/12 3:44 p.m.
Re: yeah because sorry, a one weapon game	Overdoziz	2/29/12 4:20 p.m.
Re: yeah because sorry, a one weapon game	kidtsunami	2/29/12 5:01 p.m.
I'm also waiting on the	kidtsunami	2/29/12 5:20 p.m.
Re: I'm also waiting on the	Avateur	2/29/12 9:14 p.m.
Re: I'm also waiting on the	Avateur	2/29/12 9:16 p.m.
Re: yeah because sorry, a one weapon game	Gravemind	2/29/12 6:21 p.m.
Re: yeah because sorry, a one weapon game	uberfoop	2/29/12 7:15 p.m.
Re: yeah because sorry, a one weapon game	Gravemind	3/1/12 1:53 a.m.
Re: yeah because sorry, a one weapon game	uberfoop	3/1/12 3:16 a.m.
Re: yeah because sorry, a one weapon game	Schooly D	3/1/12 2:01 a.m.
Re: yeah because sorry, a one weapon game	Gravemind	3/1/12 3:29 a.m.
Re: TU is sweet.	Overdoziz	2/29/12 4:26 p.m.
Re: TU is sweet.	Gravemind	2/29/12 6:00 p.m.
Re: TU is sweet.	kidtsunami	2/29/12 6:44 p.m.
Re: TU is sweet.	Overdoziz	2/29/12 6:55 p.m.
Jason... hugs... NOW. *NM*	Hyokin	3/1/12 12:53 a.m.
Is it a b-day hug? *NM*	Gravemind	3/1/12 1:56 a.m.
I guess... :p *NM*	Hyokin	3/1/12 11:12 a.m.
Re: 343i has killed my interest in Reach MM.	SEspider	2/28/12 10:18 p.m.
Re: 343i has killed my interest in Reach MM.	dogcom	3/3/12 11:52 a.m.
Re: 343i has killed my interest in Reach MM.	Grizzlei	3/3/12 1:41 p.m.
This made me cry a little. :( *NM*	Pkmnrulz240	3/3/12 2:08 p.m.