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Re: re: DMR Study Update (new spreadsheet)
Posted By: RC MasterDate: 2/1/12 6:46 a.m.

In Response To: Re: re: DMR Study Update (new spreadsheet) (Hoovaloov)


: So if we exclude full-on spamming as a tactic, and just focus on 4 spam + 1
: headshot vs. bursts of 2 + 1 headshot, it appears that 100% bloom
: encourages the 4 shot spamming technique and 85% bloom encourages the
: multiple reset technique. Or to put it another way, 85% bloom encourages
: pacing even within this type of tactic.

Lol - thats a bit of a stretch. 1 frame of difference is hardly enough of an advantage to be considered 'encourage.' As we see from your own pacing data, the only reason 4 spam shots + headshot might ever be considered optimal would be because it could be executed more reliably than reset after each shot due to reaction time errors creeping in.

Also, considering full reset in 85% is literally 1 frame different from max ROF, you can't really argue that it's encouraged since the difference is so small! You could pace by mistake.

If the difference between a perfect pacing kill and a 5 shot spam kill is a mere 4 frames, as we've discussed with the lag compensation, it basically becomes a toss-up whether either of you will win.

Considering that a spammer could zoom in for their last shot, certainly at close and probably at medium range, they could secure the minimum kill time and a headshot. I've done this, not reliably, but I have and it works.

: I would
: much rather see an increase in their damage and accuracy then a nerf of
: the DMR/NR.

: As for the NR, there's really only three options: 1) remove it completely,
: but that's lame 2) make it a starting weapon so it's fair, but that would
: basically turn everything into ZB all the time, or 3) make it a new
: "power weapon" and have only one or two on the map with 2 or 3
: minute respawns and shallow clips.

: BTB maps need to take a closer look at player cover in TU gametypes. So wide
: open maps are pretty much WWI trench lines. Cross the no-man's land and
: you're done for. I think the Community could step up here and add a few
: strategic rocks or small buildings to maps like Hemmorhage, Wayont, or
: other open maps that have become tougher to traverse.

This is exactly the kind of rolling re-balancing that a good TU should not introduce - and 343i didn't do anyway so we're still left with an imbalanced game. Having to change map structure and ammo counts on every map is the WORST thing you can do since you've just broken familiarity and have to test changes all over again.

Adding more cover on Hemmorhage, for example, might solve map-traversal issues, but then kills are going to be even harder to make at range since players in the open can run for cover more quickly.

: If reducing bloom "breaks" Reach, then adding bloom will fix it,
: right?

: The problem with this is, since you have to wait a lot longer before the next
: shot, the game would grind to a halt.

Firstly, short range would be unaffected since weapons like the AR and Pistol would still kill as quickly, yet the DMR would be less easy to use in those encounters.

Secondly, the bloom getting larger, more quickly, does not preclude it also resetting more quickly. This way, if you fired faster than the optimal ROF, you would quickly get a screen filled with a huge reticle. But if you fired to cadance, you would kill as fast as you ever did.

THAT would punish spamming.

Simply reducing bloom does not and was never a stated design goal.

: The other problem with this is, if spamming is punished this badly, you're
: basically forcing the player to fire at a specific rate. So then why even
: allow players to spam? Why not just remove the bloom mechanic altogether
: and have a fixed rate of fire? Now we're back at Zero Bloom.

It's another layer of skill - timing. Which was part of the whole point to begin with. With a fixed ROF, everything above a certain rate of trigger-mashing is the same. Whereas with bloom, you need to hit the trigger within a certain range of consistent timing otherwise you're going to miss.

Timing is a skill. Don't try and say it's not.

: So what is the answer? I think the data shows that the TU does a great job of
: rewarding player skill, making the game a bit faster, and making it fun to
: fire the DMR again.

LOL. The data shows that in theory unzoomed fights at close and medium range reward waiting for the full reset more in 85% than 100%

Your more 'in practice' data does not say the same thing - it says pacers actually fire slower than the optimal rate and suffer for it more in 85%. A facet of the data which is now convieniently cast to the wind when it no longer supports your argument...

Because lets be honest here, the most important thing is not how it works in theory, but how it works in practice. In practice, a difference of 1 frame in shot timing is very little.

Perhaps you mistyped, but the data makes no statements on how fun the DMR is to fire, either.


Message Index




Replies:

Statistical Analysis of DMR BehaviorHoovaloov 1/17/12 6:22 a.m.
     Re: Statistical Analysis of DMR BehaviorDEEP NNN 1/17/12 7:27 a.m.
           Re: Statistical Analysis of DMR BehaviorHoovaloov 1/17/12 7:46 a.m.
     Your analysis is grossly incompleteRC Master 1/17/12 10:12 a.m.
           Also, a problem of definition.uberfoop 1/17/12 11:30 a.m.
                 Re: Also, a problem of definition.Hoovaloov 1/17/12 4:59 p.m.
                       Re: Also, a problem of definition.RC Master 1/17/12 7:49 p.m.
                             Re: Also, a problem of definition.Hoovaloov 1/17/12 8:17 p.m.
                                   Re: Also, a problem of definition.RC Master 1/18/12 9:35 a.m.
                                         Re: Also, a problem of definition.Hoovaloov 1/18/12 4:29 p.m.
                                               Re: Also, a problem of definition.RC Master 1/20/12 9:48 p.m.
           Re: Your analysis is grossly incompleteFyreWulff 1/17/12 12:32 p.m.
                 Re: Your analysis is grossly incompleteFyreWulff 1/17/12 12:33 p.m.
                 Re: Your analysis is grossly incompleteSchooly D 1/17/12 1:11 p.m.
                       Re: Your analysis is grossly incompletekatancik 1/17/12 1:36 p.m.
                             Re: Your analysis is grossly incompleteHoovaloov 1/17/12 5:30 p.m.
                       Re: Your analysis is grossly incompleteFyreWulff 1/17/12 2:26 p.m.
                             Re: Your analysis is grossly incompleteHoovaloov 1/17/12 5:36 p.m.
                                   Re: Your analysis is grossly incompleteFyreWulff 1/17/12 6:12 p.m.
                                         Re: Your analysis is grossly incompleteFyreWulff 1/17/12 6:28 p.m.
                                         Re: Your analysis is grossly incompleteHoovaloov 1/18/12 1:56 a.m.
                       Re: Your analysis is grossly incompleteHoovaloov 1/17/12 5:21 p.m.
                 Re: Your analysis is grossly incompleteHoovaloov 1/17/12 5:14 p.m.
           Re: Your analysis is grossly incompleteHoovaloov 1/17/12 4:54 p.m.
                 Re: Your analysis is grossly incompleteuberfoop 1/17/12 5:13 p.m.
                       Re: Your analysis is grossly incompleteHoovaloov 1/17/12 5:19 p.m.
                             Re: Your analysis is grossly incompleteuberfoop 1/17/12 7:32 p.m.
                                   Re: Your analysis is grossly incompleteHoovaloov 1/17/12 8:21 p.m.
                                   Re: Your analysis is grossly incompleteHoovaloov 1/18/12 2:03 a.m.
                                   DMR Study Update #2 (aka for uberfoop)Hoovaloov 1/20/12 7:42 a.m.
                                         Re: DMR Study Update #2 (aka for uberfoop)uberfoop 1/20/12 2:00 p.m.
                                               Re: DMR Study Update #2 (aka for uberfoop)Hoovaloov 1/20/12 5:16 p.m.
                                         Re: DMR Study Update #2 (aka for uberfoop)RC Master 1/20/12 2:29 p.m.
                                               Re: DMR Study Update #2 (aka for uberfoop)Hoovaloov 1/20/12 6:42 p.m.
                                                     Re: DMR Study Update #3 (aka for Hoovaloov)RC Master 1/23/12 9:49 p.m.
                                                           Re: DMR Study Update #3 (aka for Hoovaloov)Hoovaloov 1/24/12 5:10 a.m.
                                                                 Edit: "pacehot" should be "headshot"Hoovaloov 1/24/12 11:39 a.m.
                                                                 re: DMR Study Update (new spreadsheet)RC Master 1/27/12 6:15 a.m.
                                                                       Re: re: DMR Study Update (new spreadsheet)Hoovaloov 1/28/12 6:20 a.m.
                                                                             Re: re: DMR Study Update (new spreadsheet)RC Master 1/28/12 11:28 a.m.
                                                                                   Re: re: DMR Study Update (new spreadsheet)Gravemind 1/28/12 2:01 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: re: DMR Study Update (new spreadsheet)RC Master 1/28/12 5:52 p.m.
                                                                                               Re: re: DMR Study Update (new spreadsheet)Gravemind 1/28/12 10:39 p.m.
                                                                                                     Whole Sandbox Is Not BrokenHoovaloov 1/31/12 4:09 p.m.
                                                                                                           I agree but...Spec ops Grunt 1/31/12 4:38 p.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: I agree but...Hoovaloov 1/31/12 4:45 p.m.
                                                                                                           No no no no no no!!!Bryan Newman 1/31/12 5:48 p.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: No no no no no no!!!Phoenix_9286 1/31/12 6:13 p.m.
                                                                                                                       I meant no disrespect...Bryan Newman 1/31/12 6:51 p.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: No no no no no no!!!kidtsunami 1/31/12 6:13 p.m.
                                                                                                           Re: Whole Sandbox Is Not BrokenSEspider 1/31/12 9:26 p.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: Whole Sandbox Is Not BrokenSpec ops Grunt 1/31/12 9:36 p.m.
                                                                                                           Re: Whole Sandbox Is Not BrokenRC Master 2/1/12 5:41 a.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: Whole Sandbox Is Not BrokenHoovaloov 2/1/12 12:33 p.m.
                                                                                                           Re: Whole Sandbox Is Not BrokenGravemind 2/3/12 4:06 a.m.
                                                                                               Re: re: DMR Study Update (new spreadsheet)General Vagueness 1/29/12 12:03 a.m.
                                                                                                     Re: re: DMR Study Update (new spreadsheet)RC Master 1/29/12 12:42 a.m.
                                                                                                           Re: re: DMR Study Update (new spreadsheet)General Vagueness 1/29/12 12:50 a.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: re: DMR Study Update (new spreadsheet)RC Master 1/29/12 12:54 a.m.
                                                                                                                       Re: re: DMR Study Update (new spreadsheet)General Vagueness 1/30/12 2:02 p.m.
                                                                                                                             Re: re: DMR Study Update (new spreadsheet)RC Master 1/30/12 9:59 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: re: DMR Study Update (new spreadsheet)Hoovaloov 1/30/12 9:22 a.m.
                                                                                         Re: re: DMR Study Update (new spreadsheet)RC Master 2/1/12 6:46 a.m.
                                                                                               All this said...RC Master 2/1/12 6:53 a.m.
                                                                                                     Re: All this said...DEEP NNN 2/1/12 7:43 a.m.
                                                                                                           Re: All this said...Hoovaloov 2/1/12 2:49 p.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: All this said...Louis Wu 2/1/12 3:00 p.m.
                                                                                                                       Re: All this said...Hoovaloov 2/1/12 3:21 p.m.
                                                                                                                             even if we hate the TUkidtsunami 2/1/12 3:50 p.m.
                                                                                                                                   Re: even if we hate the TUHoovaloov 2/1/12 4:10 p.m.
                                                                                                                                         Re: even if we hate the TUFyreWulff 2/2/12 12:39 p.m.
                                                                                                                                   Re: even if we hate the TUGravemind 2/1/12 6:52 p.m.
                                                                                                                       Re: All this said...CaneCutter 2/1/12 4:48 p.m.
                                                                                                                             Make "me" the happiest... *NM*CaneCutter 2/1/12 4:49 p.m.
                                                                                                                       Re: All this said...Gravemind 2/1/12 6:42 p.m.
                                                                                                                             Re: All this said...Hoovaloov 2/1/12 7:12 p.m.
                                                                                                                                   Re: All this said...Gravemind 2/2/12 2:23 a.m.
                                                                                                                                         Re: All this said... *IMG*Hoovaloov 2/2/12 3:28 a.m.
                                                                                                                             Re: All this said...RC Master 2/2/12 6:58 a.m.
                                                                                                                                   Re: All this said...Gravemind 2/2/12 7:36 a.m.
                                                                                                                                         wut?RC Master 2/2/12 7:46 a.m.
                                                                                                                                               Re: wut?Gravemind 2/2/12 8:28 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                     Oh, wow...RC Master 2/2/12 9:21 a.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: All this said...DEEP NNN 2/1/12 3:52 p.m.
                                                                                                                       Re: All this said...Hoovaloov 2/1/12 4:19 p.m.
                                                                                                                             Re: All this said...DEEP NNN 2/1/12 5:54 p.m.
                                                                                                                                   Re: All this said...RC Master 2/1/12 6:16 p.m.
                                                                                                                                   Re: All this said...Hoovaloov 2/1/12 6:21 p.m.
                                                                                                                                         Re: All this said...Louis Wu 2/1/12 6:31 p.m.
                                                                                                                                               ditto *NM*kidtsunami 2/1/12 6:40 p.m.
                                                                                                                                               Re: All this said...Hoovaloov 2/1/12 6:58 p.m.
                                                                                                                                         Re: All this said...DEEP NNN 2/1/12 6:47 p.m.
                                                                                                                                               Re: All this said...Hoovaloov 2/1/12 6:51 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                     Re: All this said...DEEP NNN 2/1/12 8:28 p.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: All this said...DEEP NNN 2/1/12 4:08 p.m.
                                                                                               Re: re: DMR Study Update (new spreadsheet)Hoovaloov 2/1/12 2:02 p.m.
     Re: Statistical Analysis of DMR BehaviorDEEP NNN 1/17/12 5:04 p.m.
           Re: Statistical Analysis of DMR BehaviorHoovaloov 1/17/12 5:28 p.m.
                 Re: Statistical Analysis of DMR BehaviorDEEP NNN 1/17/12 6:13 p.m.
     More numbers, better pictureRC Master 1/17/12 7:43 p.m.
           Blog Post UpdatedHoovaloov 1/18/12 1:27 a.m.
                 You misunderstand what the median is...RC Master 1/18/12 9:51 a.m.
                       Chart Updated with MediansHoovaloov 1/18/12 10:18 p.m.
     Apparently I'm a troll?RC Master 1/20/12 6:43 p.m.
           Dude. *NM*kanbo 1/20/12 6:54 p.m.
           Re: Apparently I'm a troll?DEEP NNN 1/20/12 7:04 p.m.
           I think there was trolling involved.NsU Soldier 1/20/12 7:08 p.m.
           Re: Apparently I'm a troll?SonofMacPhisto 1/20/12 7:08 p.m.
           Re: Apparently I'm a troll?Flynn J Taggart 1/20/12 8:54 p.m.
           Re: Apparently I'm a troll?Hoovaloov 1/25/12 6:45 p.m.
     DMR Study Maps+Gametypes Available In File ShareHoovaloov 1/27/12 3:29 a.m.
           Re: DMR Study Maps+Gametypes Available In File ShaRC Master 1/27/12 6:16 a.m.



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