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Re: You have an odd definition of "update" then...
Posted By: Narcogen <narcogen@rampancy.net>Date: 6/17/11 12:47 a.m.

In Response To: Re: You have an odd definition of "update" then... (uberfoop)


: I constructed an argument that is intended to counter a common assumption
: about how games may or may not be enjoyable. You have mostly assumed that
: assumption that I argue against, and explored its implications and how
: they differ from the implications of my conclusion.

: I truly don't mean to sound rude by this, but I haven't been able to identify
: any theoretical argument from you that addresses my argument, or at least
: not one that does not address it by merely assuming the negation of the
: conclusion.

I'm sorry I've entirely lost the thread now. We're now at two replies where you accuse me of a logical fallacy without reiterating your actual argument, which makes it difficult for me to reply.

Beyond that I'm not sure why I have to share your assumptions or your conclusions. Perhaps it's possible we're just advancing two separate but mutually exclusive arguments? That again would leave the anecdotal evidence only, where our personal experiences don't agree, but whereas your idea that "it's fun to lose in Halo 1" is more or less negated, as an assumption, by my assertion that "losing in Halo 1 is not fun for everyone" for which I offer my own experience. It is not more fun to lose, even if I know why, than it is to win at least some of the time-- even if you don't know why.

: True. This is why having a high skill ceiling is important for games with
: fairly deterministic gameplay; if you're so good that, even when you're
: playing poorly, you have constantly perfect execution of a certain
: feature, then the gameplay probably does tend to lose something.

It's only important for those that high up on the curve, which has been more or less my case against Halo 1 on XBL since these arguments started, years ago. For those unable or unwilling to trade three headshot pistol kills, Halo 1's high skill ceiling is not as important as its low floor-- which is where most of the online players would bunch up, and where the attrition would begin. That's why I would predict Halo 1 XBL to be a niche product, interesting to the best of players and hangers-on mostly, and not being the mass market product that Halo multiplayer was intended to be, and which the skill gap between best and worst players was intentionally narrowed in order to achieve.

: In Halo 1's case, the skill ceiling is high enough that consistantly getting
: 3sk's is a very high order, at least against opponents who are competantly
: trying to fight back and avoid being killed. Even the best players out
: there, when playing at their best, cannot typically sustain 3sk's.

I'll wait for someone else to come in and contradict you there.

: I did expand on it. That's what my whole argument about where frustration in
: Reach gameplay sources from is ultimately justifying.

So your preference for Halo 1 is really just a negation of Reach? I'm not sure I follow.

: In fact, my being excluded from that elite group is, from my perspective,
: arguably the main reason* that I should need such an argument to justify
: wanting Halo 1 online multiplayer (though admittedly, as I mentioned
: earlier, not where the argument originally sources from).

: *Admittedly, I also just plain like the feel of the game more, to the point
: where I'd want the games' multiplayer to be available online on console
: with good netcode even if I did think it was seriously flawed.

So you don't think it's flawed, as I do, but you'd want them to make it even if you thought it was?

rampancy.net



Message Index




Replies:

Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*RC Master 6/8/11 7:26 p.m.
     404 not found *NM*ZaneZavin 6/8/11 7:34 p.m.
     Fixed linkChris101b 6/8/11 7:40 p.m.
           Good news! They have what you want right here...kapowaz 6/15/11 7:15 a.m.
     Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*katancik 6/8/11 9:06 p.m.
           The pointsnakegriffin 6/8/11 10:04 p.m.
                 Re: The pointRC Master 6/21/11 7:21 a.m.
                       Re: The pointLouis Wu 6/21/11 8:06 a.m.
                             Like me!JDQuackers 6/21/11 8:13 a.m.
                                   Re: Like me!uberfoop 6/22/11 9:04 p.m.
                             Re: The pointRC Master 6/22/11 5:52 a.m.
                       Re: The pointDEEP NNN 6/21/11 8:47 a.m.
                       Re: The pointBry 6/21/11 9:12 a.m.
           Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*TDSpiral 6/8/11 10:07 p.m.
           Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*kanbo 6/8/11 10:32 p.m.
                 Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*TDSpiral 6/8/11 11:00 p.m.
                       Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*snakegriffin 6/8/11 11:17 p.m.
                             Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*kanbo 6/9/11 12:05 a.m.
                                   Yeah that was awesome! Want more. *NM*scarab 6/9/11 1:21 a.m.
                 Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*katancik 6/9/11 1:24 a.m.
                 Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*RC Master 6/21/11 7:41 a.m.
     Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*BanditORR 6/9/11 1:32 a.m.
           Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*RC Master 6/9/11 5:27 a.m.
           Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*scarab 6/9/11 6:25 a.m.
                 Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*FoolsRun 6/9/11 7:27 a.m.
                       Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*scarab 6/9/11 8:52 a.m.
                             Urrr, now I'm conflicted.scarab 6/9/11 9:14 a.m.
                                   Re: Urrr, now I'm conflicted.Archilen 6/9/11 9:29 a.m.
                                   Re: Urrr, now I'm conflicted.General Vagueness 6/9/11 1:13 p.m.
                                         Landscape crimescarab 6/10/11 4:47 a.m.
                 Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*Narcogen 6/10/11 3:21 a.m.
           Extra campaign features I'd like in CEARockslider 6/11/11 7:54 a.m.
                 Re: Extra campaign features I'd like in CEAmunky-058 6/11/11 10:21 a.m.
                       Re: Extra campaign features I'd like in CEARockslider 6/11/11 11:41 a.m.
                       Re: Extra campaign features I'd like in CEApadraig08 6/11/11 12:34 p.m.
                 Re: Extra campaign features I'd like in CEACaptain Spark 6/11/11 10:24 a.m.
                       Re: Extra campaign features I'd like in CEARockslider 6/11/11 12:23 p.m.
                             Re: Extra campaign features I'd like in CEACaptain Spark 6/11/11 2:16 p.m.
                                   Re: Extra campaign features I'd like in CEARockslider 6/11/11 3:35 p.m.
                                         Re: Extra campaign features I'd like in CEASonofMacPhisto 6/11/11 3:45 p.m.
                                               Re: Extra campaign features I'd like in CEARockslider 6/11/11 3:51 p.m.
                                                     Re: Extra campaign features I'd like in CEASonofMacPhisto 6/11/11 3:53 p.m.
                                         Re: Extra campaign features I'd like in CEACaptain Spark 6/11/11 4:11 p.m.
                 Re: Extra campaign features I'd like in CEACody Miller 6/11/11 10:28 a.m.
                 Re: Extra campaign features I'd like in CEAKermit 6/11/11 11:58 a.m.
                       Re: Extra campaign features I'd like in CEARockslider 6/11/11 1:22 p.m.
                 Re: Extra campaign features I'd like in CEAArteenEsben 6/11/11 12:25 p.m.
                 Re: Extra campaign features I'd like in CEARC Master 6/21/11 7:46 a.m.
     Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*Cody Miller 6/9/11 8:13 p.m.
           They should have added online custom games atleastThe BS Police 6/9/11 8:33 p.m.
           Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*Avateur 6/9/11 8:40 p.m.
           Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*General Vagueness 6/9/11 8:53 p.m.
                 Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*Decommissioner 6/9/11 9:24 p.m.
                       Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*General Vagueness 6/9/11 10:51 p.m.
                             Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*Decommissioner 6/10/11 9:06 a.m.
                                   Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*General Vagueness 6/10/11 6:25 p.m.
                                         Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*Decommissioner 6/10/11 8:13 p.m.
                 Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*The BS Police 6/9/11 11:04 p.m.
                       Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*General Vagueness 6/9/11 11:11 p.m.
                             Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*The BS Police 6/9/11 11:21 p.m.
                 Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*Narcogen 6/10/11 3:30 a.m.
           Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*Narcogen 6/10/11 3:27 a.m.
                 When opposites collideCody Miller 6/10/11 11:23 a.m.
                       Re: When opposites collideNarcogen 6/13/11 12:03 a.m.
                 Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*FoolsRun 6/10/11 2:35 p.m.
                       Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*Cody Miller 6/10/11 3:09 p.m.
                             Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*Beckx 6/10/11 3:22 p.m.
                                   Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*Avateur 6/10/11 4:06 p.m.
                                         Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*The Loot 6/10/11 5:39 p.m.
                                               Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*Avateur 6/11/11 5:20 a.m.
                                                     Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*General Vagueness 6/13/11 5:51 p.m.
                                                           Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*uberfoop 6/13/11 6:12 p.m.
                                                                 Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*The Loot 6/13/11 9:13 p.m.
                                                                       Such drastic changes are hardly "updates." *NM*uberfoop 6/13/11 11:04 p.m.
                                                                             You have an odd definition of "update" then... *NM*The Loot 6/14/11 12:40 a.m.
                                                                                   Re: You have an odd definition of "update" then...uberfoop 6/14/11 12:52 a.m.
                                                                                         Re: You have an odd definition of "update" then...Narcogen 6/14/11 3:22 a.m.
                                                                                               Re: You have an odd definition of "update" then...uberfoop 6/14/11 3:58 a.m.
                                                                                                     Re: You have an odd definition of "update" then...Narcogen 6/14/11 4:47 a.m.
                                                                                                           Re: You have an odd definition of "update" then...uberfoop 6/14/11 2:09 p.m.
                                                                                                                 Clarificationuberfoop 6/14/11 2:47 p.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: You have an odd definition of "update" then...Narcogen 6/15/11 2:12 a.m.
                                                                                                                       Re: You have an odd definition of "update" then...uberfoop 6/15/11 4:16 a.m.
                                                                                                                             Re: You have an odd definition of "update" then...Narcogen 6/15/11 4:57 a.m.
                                                                                                                                   Calling Schooly!The Loot 6/15/11 10:56 p.m.
                                                                                                                                   Re: You have an odd definition of "update" then...uberfoop 6/16/11 2:20 a.m.
                                                                                                                                         Re: You have an odd definition of "update" then...Narcogen 6/17/11 12:47 a.m.
                                                                                                                                               Re: You have an odd definition of "update" then...uberfoop 6/17/11 3:51 a.m.
                                                                                                                                                     Standard uber double post.uberfoop 6/17/11 11:40 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                     Re: You have an odd definition of "update" then...Narcogen 6/20/11 12:26 a.m.
                                                                                                     Re: You have an odd definition of "update" then...General Vagueness 6/14/11 12:09 p.m.
                                                                                                           Re: You have an odd definition of "update" then...The Loot 6/14/11 9:33 p.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: You have an odd definition of "update" then...uberfoop 6/14/11 10:06 p.m.
                                                                                                                       Re: You have an odd definition of "update" then...General Vagueness 6/15/11 10:25 p.m.
                                                                                                                             Re: You have an odd definition of "update" then...uberfoop 6/16/11 12:14 a.m.
                                   Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*Cody Miller 6/10/11 6:59 p.m.
                       Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*Gravemind 6/10/11 7:29 p.m.
                             Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*BanditORR 6/11/11 4:50 p.m.
                                   Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*Hawaiian Pig 6/11/11 6:28 p.m.
                             Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*Narcogen 6/13/11 12:16 a.m.
           Wait... what?snakegriffin 6/11/11 8:22 a.m.
     Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*Someone 6/11/11 7:51 p.m.
           Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*The Loot 6/11/11 8:47 p.m.
                 Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*Cody Miller 6/11/11 9:34 p.m.
                       Re: Why i wont be buying HCEA *article*General Vagueness 6/11/11 9:40 p.m.
                             Re: Why i will be buying HCEA *article*mnemesis 6/11/11 11:26 p.m.
                                   Re: Why i will be buying HCEA *article*Cody Miller 6/12/11 3:33 a.m.
                                         erm, dial down the obnoxious?nomis78 6/12/11 4:48 a.m.
                             Augmented portRockslider 6/12/11 8:47 a.m.
     Profile renaming trick for creating multiple savesRockslider 6/12/11 6:32 a.m.
     So I have found one thing in its favour...RC Master 6/13/11 6:43 p.m.
     Well I may not get it now either >:(Moorpheusl9 6/15/11 7:41 a.m.
           Re: Well I may not get it now either >:(Myyke 6/15/11 7:48 a.m.
                 UpdateMoorpheusl9 6/15/11 8:50 a.m.



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