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Re: If it makes you feel better...
Posted By: Narcogen <narcogen@rampancy.net>Date: 9/23/10 6:17 a.m.

In Response To: Re: If it makes you feel better... (Hawaiian Pig)


: Seriously, this is probably the only reason why it felt like they worked.
: Their voice acting and their dialogue was ripped straight from their
: characters on Firefly.

: But hey, those characters are interesting; ODST piggybacked off of that and
: it worked.

ODST got to piggyback off Firefly for its voice characterizations, and then on Halo 2 for the setting and context. There's no need to explain who the Covenant are, or why they're on Earth-- just what Dare's team is supposed to do (which is a mystery and they don't tell you) so that entire scene is to establish character.

Dare is mysterious, but in charge.

Buck loves his men (and possibly Dare) but takes no guff.

Dutch is the gruff patriot.

Romeo is the sarcastic wiseass.

Mickey is the peacemaker in the group, looking for an easy way out (either a tank, or to wait for backup).

These human characters are also easily comprehended archetypes that you can establish quickly, but are inappropriate for the story being told in Reach.

Reach can take some of Dutch and Romeo and make Emile. Dare has no anologue (except perhaps Halsey herself) because nobody is withholding information inside Noble Team, so there's no mystery. There's no place for Mickey's "let's wait for backup" attitude, because that's unbefitting a Spartan. There's no place for a personal relationship, romantic feelings, or recriminations (Buck and Dare). There's no room for jealousy and resentment (Romeo). In fact, what often makes endearing characters are the human flaws, and those simply aren't there in Noble Team, by design. Jorge gets to be merciful (which humanizes him and then costs him his life) and Emile gets to be merciless, but that's it-- everybody else is all business, and the characters are just standins for their job descriptions: leader guy, sniper guy, tech girl. (Admittedly Kat does also get to play the "second in command" role where she questions Carter's judgment, and points out that tough choices are being made: admitting that the planet is lost and using Spartans within the context of that admission, which is something Carter doesn't want to face.)

There's nothing particularly surprising by the fact that, without the interplay of human flaws and human relationships, Reach fails to accomplish for its six heroes in one game what the original series did accomplish for the Master Chief in three games, and he's permitted more of a relationship with Cortana in those three than any of the team gets with each other-- and even after all that, the Chief gets to be tough and dutiful and sometimes (okay, twice) sarcastic. There's no room to leave things open ended here, to show you a bit now and a bit later, because for these characters, there is no later. Master Chief gets to salute Keyes and then mouth off to / flirt with Cortana, but Carter et al only get the former. They get to salute and die, because that's their lot.

Reach is what happens when, after making a trilogy about a stoic cyborg supersoldier and his darling AI companion with whom he has a totally platonic relationship that is totally platonic (even though she spends all the time nude) while the two save the galaxy from not one but two independent alien hordes, you get instructions to make another game just like that, but with five more soldiers, and please toss in every possible bit of gameplay-related fanservice possible.

I'm sure Microsoft would have been just as happy for Bungie to make Halo 4 as Reach. The problem with that, I think, is that Bungie would not have been so happy to do so. They finished that story the way they wanted. They can't stop MS from going ahead with things, but Halo 4 would have been opening a new can of worms that Bungie doesn't intend to finish. Better they end things where they left it. Reach gave Bungie a chance to put the finishing touches on the gameplay, give people back the Elites they wanted, show a planetary invasion without a distracting trip to a Forerunner installation (until the end, anyway) and throw in a lot of other stuff they probably didn't have the time to make work in the previous games.

I did have one idea, which was to take the opening level, where Noble Team and the leadership still think (or perhaps wish) that the problem is rebels. Have there be a real rebel action, and do a level or two where you fight them. Humans fighting each other seems to be a design directive prohibited by Bungie, but it might have worked to have Spartans reluctantly fighting rebel humans, only to have the Covenant arrive and force them into a makeshift alliance. That could give you a character (rebel leader) who could have an arc, and whose death might be more meaningful.

I'm not sure Bungie ever would have wanted to do that, but I think it might have dispelled the notion that nothing much goes on in Reach's story until close to the very end, and it might have been achieved without touching much of the actual mission designs, save for the change of target.

Anger, Sadness and Envy Episode 20: Reach Spoilers



Message Index




Replies:

Hawaiian Pig's Fantabulous Story Review *SP*Hawaiian Pig 9/17/10 5:25 p.m.
     Re: Hawaiian Pig's Fantabulous Story Review *SP*BanditORR 9/17/10 7:16 p.m.
           One More ThingHawaiian Pig 9/17/10 10:51 p.m.
                 Re: One More ThingHawaiian Pig 9/17/10 11:05 p.m.
                       If it makes you feel better...Funkmon 9/17/10 11:27 p.m.
                             Re: If it makes you feel better...Hawaiian Pig 9/18/10 12:02 a.m.
                                   Re: If it makes you feel better...kapowaz 9/18/10 5:55 p.m.
                                         Re: If it makes you feel better...Hawaiian Pig 9/18/10 5:59 p.m.
                                               Re: If it makes you feel better...Narcogen 9/23/10 6:17 a.m.
                                                     Re: If it makes you feel better...Hawaiian Pig 9/23/10 3:40 p.m.
                                         Re: If it makes you feel better...Ze Moose 9/19/10 2:28 a.m.
                                   Re: If it makes you feel better...Jinno 9/18/10 10:32 p.m.
                                         Re: If it makes you feel better...Hawaiian Pig 9/19/10 12:05 a.m.
                                         Re: If it makes you feel better...Cody Miller 9/20/10 12:41 a.m.
                                         Re: If it makes you feel better...General Vagueness 9/20/10 6:29 p.m.
                                               Re: If it makes you feel better...Louis Wu 9/20/10 6:44 p.m.
                                                     Re: If it makes you feel better...Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 9/20/10 6:47 p.m.
                                                           Re: If it makes you feel better...Louis Wu 9/20/10 6:57 p.m.
                                                                 Re: If it makes you feel better...Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 9/20/10 9:23 p.m.
                                         Re: If it makes you feel better...Narcogen 9/23/10 6:27 a.m.
                                               Reversed development priorities indeed.RyanTheHeretic 9/23/10 7:59 a.m.
                                                     Re: Reversed development priorities indeed.Narcogen 9/23/10 11:25 p.m.
                 Re: One More ThingAvateur 9/18/10 1:24 a.m.
                       Re: One More Thingthebruce0 9/19/10 11:44 p.m.
                             Re: One More ThingHawaiian Pig 9/20/10 12:30 a.m.
                                   Re: One More Thingthebruce0 9/20/10 9:01 a.m.
                 The Fall of Reach vs. Halo: Reach *SP*PhysshBone 9/18/10 9:45 p.m.
                       Re: The Fall of Reach vs. Halo: Reach *SP*Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 9/18/10 10:51 p.m.
                       Re: The Fall of Reach vs. Halo: Reach *SP*Hawaiian Pig 9/19/10 12:08 a.m.
                       Re: The Fall of Reach vs. Halo: Reach *SP*Ze Moose 9/19/10 2:49 a.m.
     Re: Hawaiian Pig's Fantabulous Story Review *SP*scarab 9/18/10 6:04 a.m.
           Re: Hawaiian Pig's Fantabulous Story Review *SP*Quirel 9/18/10 12:31 p.m.
           Re: Hawaiian Pig's Fantabulous Story Review *SP*Hawaiian Pig 9/18/10 3:43 p.m.
                 Re: Hawaiian Pig's Fantabulous Story Review *SP*scarab 9/18/10 5:00 p.m.
     Re: Hawaiian Pig's Fantabulous Story Review *SP*Azo 'Galvat 9/18/10 8:21 a.m.
           Re: Hawaiian Pig's Fantabulous Story Review *SP*stabbim 9/18/10 10:02 a.m.
     A for effort?Jillybean 9/18/10 9:57 a.m.
           Re: A for effort? SPOILERSCody Miller 9/18/10 11:46 a.m.
                 Re: A for effort? SPOILERSretinence 9/18/10 12:28 p.m.
                 Re: A for effort? SPOILERSJillybean 9/18/10 12:38 p.m.
                       To both retinence and JillybeanDHalo 9/18/10 1:11 p.m.
                             Re: To both retinence and Jillybeanscarab 9/18/10 5:17 p.m.
                                   Re: To both retinence and JillybeanBry 9/18/10 5:55 p.m.
                                         Re: To both retinence and Jillybeanscarab 9/18/10 6:24 p.m.
                                               Re: To both retinence and JillybeanBry 9/18/10 6:38 p.m.
                                                     Re: To both retinence and Jillybeanscarab 9/18/10 7:02 p.m.
                                                           Re: To both retinence and JillybeanBry 9/18/10 7:18 p.m.
                                                                 Re: To both retinence and Jillybeanscarab 9/19/10 4:16 a.m.
                                   Re: To both retinence and JillybeanStephen L. (SoundEffect) 9/18/10 9:23 p.m.
                                         Re: To both retinence and Jillybeanscarab 9/19/10 4:21 a.m.
                                               Re: To both retinence and JillybeanBry 9/19/10 6:51 a.m.
                                               Re: To both retinence and JillybeanStephen L. (SoundEffect) 9/19/10 11:02 a.m.
                                                     Re: To both retinence and Jillybeanscarab 9/19/10 2:15 p.m.
                                                           Re: To both retinence and JillybeanStephen L. (SoundEffect) 9/19/10 2:53 p.m.
                             Re: To both retinence and JillybeanArithmomaniac 9/18/10 10:04 p.m.
                             The datapads are wrong. *SP*Jordan117 9/18/10 11:02 p.m.
                                   Re: The datapads are wrong. *SP*scarab 9/19/10 4:28 a.m.
                                         Re: The datapads are wrong. *SP*Jordan117 9/19/10 3:05 p.m.
                                   Re: The datapads are wrong. *SP*DHalo 9/23/10 11:34 a.m.
                             Re: To both retinence and JillybeanNarcogen 9/23/10 6:33 a.m.
                                   Re: To both retinence and JillybeanDHalo 9/23/10 11:33 a.m.
                 Re: A for effort? SPOILERSHikaru-119 9/28/10 4:17 p.m.
                       Re: A for effort? SPOILERSHawaiian Pig 9/28/10 5:37 p.m.
                             Re: A for effort? SPOILERSHikaru-119 9/28/10 5:45 p.m.
                                   Re: A for effort? SPOILERSHawaiian Pig 9/28/10 5:49 p.m.
                       Re: A for effort? SPOILERSGeneral Battuta 9/28/10 6:23 p.m.
                             I think you all are mistaken...DHalo 9/28/10 6:29 p.m.
                                   Re: I think you all are mistaken...Trey 9/28/10 8:17 p.m.
           Re: A for effort?Hawaiian Pig 9/18/10 3:59 p.m.
                 Re: A for effort?Jillybean 9/18/10 5:19 p.m.
                       Re: A for effort?Ze Moose 9/19/10 3:23 a.m.
     Great Stuff!YNation913 9/18/10 10:32 a.m.
     Iread everythingSPU7N1K 9/18/10 12:20 p.m.
           Re: Iread everythingQuirel 9/18/10 12:23 p.m.
     Re: Hawaiian Pig's Fantabulous Story Review *SP*sharpsniper99 9/18/10 12:54 p.m.
     Re: Hawaiian Pig's Review3Suns 9/18/10 1:20 p.m.
           Re: Hawaiian Pig's ReviewDHalo 9/18/10 2:23 p.m.
                 *SP*Louis Wu 9/18/10 4:32 p.m.
                       True. *NM*DHalo 9/18/10 7:40 p.m.
           Re: Hawaiian Pig's Reviewuberfoop 9/18/10 2:45 p.m.
                 Re: Hawaiian Pig's Review3Suns 9/19/10 5:18 a.m.
     Re: Emotionally lackingCrab 9/18/10 4:09 p.m.
     Re: Hawaiian Pig's Fantabulous Story Review *SP*dizzy 9/18/10 4:28 p.m.
           Re: Halo 4...hotshot revan 9/18/10 5:09 p.m.
                 Re: Halo 4...dizzy 9/18/10 6:04 p.m.
                       Re: Halo 4...tombodemon 9/18/10 7:39 p.m.
                       Re: Halo 4...Devil Mingy 9/18/10 7:45 p.m.
                       Re: Halo 4...Arithmomaniac 9/18/10 10:14 p.m.
                       Re: Halo 4...Quirel 9/18/10 10:15 p.m.
                             Re: Halo 4...dizzy 9/19/10 8:10 a.m.
     Re: Hawaiian Pig's Fantabulous Story Review *SP*uberfoop 9/18/10 4:48 p.m.
     If Noble Six is a Mary Sue...Train Dodger 9/19/10 3:41 a.m.
           This. Very much this. *NM*Riceatron 9/19/10 4:40 a.m.
           Re: If Noble Six is a Mary Sue...Hawaiian Pig 9/19/10 5:03 a.m.
                 Re: If Noble Six is a Mary Sue...Bry 9/19/10 5:18 p.m.
                       Re: If Noble Six is a Mary Sue...Hawaiian Pig 9/19/10 5:34 p.m.
           Re: If Noble Six is a Mary Sue...Cody Miller 9/20/10 12:54 a.m.
                 Re: If Noble Six is a Mary Sue...Train Dodger 9/20/10 5:39 a.m.
                       Re: If Noble Six is a Mary Sue...Cody Miller 9/20/10 10:09 a.m.
     Re: Hawaiian Pig's Fantabulous Story Review *SP*DenimDan312 9/19/10 4:34 p.m.
           Re: Hawaiian Pig's Fantabulous Story Review *SP*Hawaiian Pig 9/19/10 5:01 p.m.
                 Re: Hawaiian Pig's Fantabulous Story Review *SP*scarab 9/19/10 7:05 p.m.
                       I give this post two thumbs up. *NM*Louis Wu 9/19/10 7:22 p.m.
                       Re: Hawaiian Pig's Fantabulous Story Review *SP*Hawaiian Pig 9/19/10 7:45 p.m.
                             Re: Hawaiian Pig's Fantabulous Story Review *SP*Hawaiian Pig 9/19/10 7:46 p.m.
                             Re: Hawaiian Pig's Fantabulous Story Review *SP*Bry 9/19/10 7:54 p.m.
                                   Re: Hawaiian Pig's Fantabulous Story Review *SP*Hawaiian Pig 9/19/10 8:01 p.m.
                                         Re: Hawaiian Pig's Fantabulous Story Review *SP*Bry 9/19/10 8:15 p.m.
                                               Re: Hawaiian Pig's Fantabulous Story Review *SP*SonofMacPhisto 9/19/10 8:40 p.m.
                                   Re: Hawaiian Pig's Fantabulous Story Review *SP*kapowaz 9/28/10 1:52 p.m.
                                         Re: Hawaiian Pig's Fantabulous Story Review *SP*Wayward Spleen™ 9/28/10 2:08 p.m.
                                               What I think.Mantis7 9/28/10 2:47 p.m.
                                                     Re: What I think.gspawn 9/28/10 3:17 p.m.
                                                           Re: Note: dialogue snippet guaranteed incorrect *NM*gspawn 9/28/10 3:18 p.m.
                                               Re: Hawaiian Pig's Fantabulous Story Review *SP*kapowaz 9/29/10 2:26 a.m.
                             Arbiter character development *SP*Narcogen 9/23/10 6:56 a.m.
                                   Re: Arbiter character development *SP*Hawaiian Pig 9/23/10 4:05 p.m.
                                         To HP Re: Arbiter character development *SP*Lobster 9/29/10 1:42 a.m.
                                               Re: To HP Re: Arbiter character development *SP*Hawaiian Pig 9/29/10 2:31 a.m.
                                                     Anyone ever figure out why the Heretic leader...Spec ops Grunt 9/29/10 3:11 a.m.
                                                           Re: Anyone ever figure out why the Heretic leader.Lobster 9/29/10 3:21 a.m.
                                                                 Re: Anyone ever figure out why the Heretic leader.Leviathan 9/29/10 3:56 a.m.
                                                     Re: To HP Re: Arbiter character development *SP*Louis Wu 9/29/10 8:19 a.m.
                                                           Re: To HP Re: Arbiter character development *SP*kanbo 9/29/10 1:18 p.m.
                                                           Re: To HP Re: Arbiter character development *SP*7he_7ruth 9/29/10 1:46 p.m.
                                                                 Re: To HP Re: Arbiter character development *SP*Bry 9/29/10 2:57 p.m.
                                                                 Re: To HP Re: Arbiter character development *SP*scarab 9/29/10 3:00 p.m.
                                                                       Re: To HP Re: Arbiter character development *SP*Azo 'Galvat 9/29/10 3:19 p.m.
                                                                       Re: To HP Re: Arbiter character development *SP*Hawaiian Pig 9/29/10 11:06 p.m.
                       ^I really agree with Scarab *NM*Lobster 9/20/10 1:31 a.m.
                 Re: Hawaiian Pig's Fantabulous Story Review *SP*Narcogen 9/23/10 6:39 a.m.
     Finally Reached *SP*Narcogen 9/23/10 5:46 a.m.
           Re: Finally Reached *SP*Anton P. Nym (aka Steve) 9/23/10 9:32 a.m.
                 Re: Finally Reached *SP*General Battuta 9/23/10 10:18 a.m.
                       Re: Finally Reached *SP*General Battuta 9/23/10 10:23 a.m.
                       Re: Finally Reached *SP*Hawaiian Pig 9/23/10 4:24 p.m.
                 Re: Finally Reached *SP*Narcogen 9/23/10 11:32 p.m.
           Speak for yourselfJillybean 9/23/10 11:29 a.m.
                 Re: Speak for yourself (Spoils)Cody Miller 9/23/10 1:32 p.m.
                       Re: Speak for yourself (Spoils)Riceatron 9/23/10 1:36 p.m.
                             Re: Speak for yourself (Spoils)Cody Miller 9/23/10 1:40 p.m.
                                   Re: Speak for yourself (Spoils)Narcogen 9/23/10 11:47 p.m.
                                         Re: Speak for yourself (Spoils)Cody Miller 9/24/10 12:21 a.m.
                       Re: Speak for yourself (Spoils)Bry 9/23/10 1:38 p.m.
                             Re: Speak for yourself (Spoils)scarab 9/24/10 9:15 p.m.
                                   Re: Speak for yourself (Spoils)Bry 9/24/10 9:41 p.m.
                       Re: Speak for yourself (Spoils)Kermit 9/23/10 2:05 p.m.
                             Re: Speak for yourself (Spoils)Cody Miller 9/23/10 2:29 p.m.
                                   Re: Speak for yourself (Spoils)Bry 9/23/10 2:38 p.m.
                                         Re: Speak for yourself (Spoils)Cody Miller 9/23/10 2:58 p.m.
                                               Re: Speak for yourself (Spoils)Wayward Spleen™ 9/23/10 3:02 p.m.
                                               Re: Speak for yourself (Spoils)Kermit 9/23/10 3:37 p.m.
                                                     but...Hawaiian Pig 9/23/10 4:28 p.m.
                                                           Re: but...Kermit 9/23/10 4:53 p.m.
                                                                 Re: but...thebruce0 9/24/10 8:49 a.m.
                                                           Re: but...Narcogen 9/23/10 11:51 p.m.
                                               Re: Speak for yourself (Spoils)Bry 9/23/10 4:22 p.m.
                                   Re: Speak for yourself (Spoils)Jillybean 9/23/10 4:46 p.m.
                                         Re: Speak for yourself (Spoils)Narcogen 9/23/10 11:53 p.m.
                                               Re: Speak for yourself (Spoils)Jillybean 9/24/10 6:11 a.m.
                                         Re: Speak for yourself (Spoils)thebruce0 9/24/10 8:53 a.m.
                 Re: Speak for yourselfNarcogen 9/23/10 11:44 p.m.
                       Re: Speak for yourselfHawaiian Pig 9/24/10 7:59 a.m.
     Re: Hawaiian Pig's Fantabulous Story Review *SP*7he_7ruth 9/28/10 10:28 p.m.
           Re: Hawaiian Pig's Fantabulous Story Review *SP*DHalo 9/28/10 10:50 p.m.
                 Re: Hawaiian Pig's Fantabulous Story Review *SP*7he_7ruth 9/28/10 11:22 p.m.
                       Re: Hawaiian Pig's Fantabulous Story Review *SP*DHalo 9/28/10 11:46 p.m.



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