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| Re: The Truth | |
| Posted By: scarab | Date: 10/14/09 9:12 a.m. |
In Response To: The Truth (pete_the_duck) : If we DO fight Elites in Reach.. people will still say "I want Halo : 1/2's Elites back! These elites aren't as : smart/fun/challenging/mandible-ish" I think that this is a real danger. We are looking back with rose tinted glasses and Brutes have come close to Elites in behaviour in ODST. Bungie are going to have to really work on Elite encounters to give them back their edge. AI is tough: can Bungie make them smarter? (I doubt it) From what I've read in Bungie publications, the main work on the AI was to organize units into groups. This was helpful to level designers but may not have translated into noticeable changes in the unit's smarts. Can Bungie pull something new out of the bag? What could they do to improve the Elites? There are always cheap ways to make them tougher: reduce our shields, increase theirs, have them attack when we are in cover to recharge. But, as I said, those methods are cheap. What makes a worthy opponent? Does the key lie in building better encounters? Could an encounter be made were you fight a Brute lead group of Covenant that use the wrong tactics for the situation? You hold your own until an Elite arrives and takes over and changes the unit's tactics? I think that the illusion of intelligence has more to do with what is going on inside your head as opposed to what the units are actually capable of. Script encounters that make sense, that give the enemy a comprehensible series of steps towards a sensible goal. If you can discern their purpose then you could form a plan to stop them. Once you start thinking in terms of, 'what are they thinking?' then you have accepted them as thinking beings. I'm not sure how you do this without resorting to Cortana as Ms Exposition. If Brutes are going to be in Reach then lets see tension between Brutes and Elites. If an Elite takes charge of a squad lead by a Brute, even if the Elite's orders are better, I could understand that it could cause resentment. I'd even like to see internecine Brute friction. When Bungie mentioned Brute pack behaviour I wondered how pack behaviour could be different from proper military unit behaviour. It turns out that the pack behaviour was a different way of organizing units in the AI. It was of more interest to level designers than to players. I think that the difference between packs and military units would be: ego. In the military you follow orders and everybody is a comrade. You don't (or shouldn't) only consider one group of people as your pack and all other soldiers as outsiders. But packs are exclusive and ego plays a greater part. The pack leader is in charge of this specific collection of units, they don't swap easily between packs. Leadership in the military depends on rank. Leadership in packs is personal, is established over the individuals of the pack by actions taken by the leader. How would any of this play out in the game? Packs may not play well together. If cover is limited then one pack may try to hog cover for themselves at the expense of non pack members. Packs may vie for your head. There could be arguments, 'you distract him whilst we move in for the kill' 'No! YOU distract him while WE move in for the kill'. It would be great if you could use this to your benefit, if you could approach from an angle that forces different packs to share cover. Packs may be territorial, they may not like other packs invading their space. Again, your movements and their movements in response may cause one pack to cross another's' turf. This could cause enough conflict to open up opportunities for you. To take advantage of this you would need to understand what is happening. And remember, this is something that is going on inside your enemies' heads. So you are thinking of them as being thinking beings. Once this happens then you are convinced of their peopleness. We already have concept of what the enemy can perceive, we can surprise them. We know how to break their will by killing the leader. We can see changes in enemy morale. Those are things that Bungie has done well to foster the illusion that we are fighting sentients, beings with minds. I think that Bungie should be looking for ways to take this further and to give each race a more distinct character and way of thinking. If you believe that you know the difference between how one race thinks and how another race thinks then you have accepted that you are fighting thinking beings. And the races have become individuals.
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| Replies: |
| Brutes > Elites | Riceatron | 10/13/09 7:38 p.m. |
| Re: Brutes > Elites | Gordon Freeman | 10/13/09 7:50 p.m. |
| Re: Elites > Brutes for Reach. Wort Wort Wort! *NM* | rhubarb | 10/13/09 7:51 p.m. |
| No. | gunluva | 10/13/09 7:51 p.m. |
| Dinosaurs > Mammals | Metalingus627 | 10/13/09 7:58 p.m. |
| Re: Dinosaurs > Mammals | Ibeechu | 10/13/09 8:02 p.m. |
| Jackals = Dinosaurs, Elites = Snakemansharks *NM* | Riceatron | 10/13/09 8:10 p.m. |
| Re: Jackals = Dinosaurs, Elites = Snakemansharks | Lincoln | 10/13/09 8:15 p.m. |
| Re: Dinosaurs > Mammals | Bry | 10/14/09 4:41 a.m. |
| Brutes = Elites | free | 10/13/09 8:24 p.m. |
| Re: Brutes > Elites | FyreWulff | 10/13/09 8:53 p.m. |
| Re: Brutes > Elites | scarab | 10/14/09 7:41 a.m. |
| We need more characters to represent the races. | Leviathan | 10/13/09 9:32 p.m. |
| Is this a poem...? | stan | 10/13/09 9:41 p.m. |
| Nope. | Hawaiian Pig | 10/13/09 9:45 p.m. |
| Completely agree | Avateur | 10/13/09 9:54 p.m. |
| Re: Completely agree | Riceatron | 10/13/09 10:05 p.m. |
| Re: Completely agree | Avateur | 10/13/09 10:20 p.m. |
| Re: Completely agree | Riceatron | 10/13/09 10:26 p.m. |
| Re: Completely agree | scarab | 10/14/09 8:27 a.m. |
| Re: Completely agree | The More Deluded | 10/14/09 1:06 p.m. |
| Re: Completely agree | free | 10/14/09 8:00 p.m. |
| Re: Completely agree | Stephen L. (SoundEffect) | 10/14/09 8:41 p.m. |
| Re: Completely agree | free | 10/14/09 10:55 p.m. |
| Re: Completely agree | SonofMacPhisto | 10/13/09 10:25 p.m. |
| Re: Completely agree | ArteenEsben | 10/14/09 12:05 a.m. |
| Re: Completely agree | SonofMacPhisto | 10/14/09 10:28 a.m. |
| The Truth | pete_the_duck | 10/14/09 6:08 a.m. |
| Re: The Truth | scarab | 10/14/09 9:12 a.m. |
| Great post *NM* | SonofMacPhisto | 10/14/09 10:24 a.m. |
| Thanks :-) *NM* | scarab | 10/14/09 11:41 a.m. |
| Re: The Truth | Bry | 10/14/09 11:49 a.m. |
| Re: The Truth | Avateur | 10/14/09 12:11 p.m. |
| Peopleness | Rockslider | 10/14/09 6:31 p.m. |
| Re: Peopleness | scarab | 10/15/09 3:28 a.m. |
| Re: The Truth | Hawaiian Pig | 10/14/09 2:18 p.m. |
| Re: The Truth | Gravemind | 10/15/09 7:51 p.m. |
| Re: The Truth | General Vagueness | 10/16/09 12:14 a.m. |
| Re: Nope. | General Vagueness | 10/13/09 10:14 p.m. |
| Re: Nope. | Hawaiian Pig | 10/13/09 10:23 p.m. |
| Re: Nope. | jazo | 10/13/09 10:53 p.m. |
| Re: Nope. | The More Deluded | 10/14/09 1:20 p.m. |
| Re: Nope. | Bry | 10/14/09 4:45 a.m. |
| Re: Nope. | General Vagueness | 10/14/09 9:20 a.m. |
| Re: Nope. | Bry | 10/14/09 10:25 a.m. |
| Re: Nope. | General Vagueness | 10/14/09 11:26 a.m. |
| Slight rabbit trail for you guys... :) | SonofMacPhisto | 10/14/09 11:34 a.m. |
| Re: Slight rabbit trail for you guys... :) | Stephen L. (SoundEffect) | 10/14/09 3:53 p.m. |
| Re: Slight rabbit trail for you guys... :) | Louis Wu | 10/14/09 3:55 p.m. |
| Re: Slight rabbit trail for you guys... :) | Stephen L. (SoundEffect) | 10/14/09 4:06 p.m. |
| Re: Slight rabbit trail for you guys... :) | Louis Wu | 10/14/09 4:08 p.m. |
| Re: Slight rabbit trail for you guys... :) | Bry | 10/14/09 4:10 p.m. |
| Re: Slight rabbit trail for you guys... :) | Anton P. Nym (aka Steve) | 10/14/09 4:14 p.m. |
| Re: Slight rabbit trail for you guys... :) | Bry | 10/14/09 5:07 p.m. |
| Re: Nope. | Bry | 10/14/09 11:36 a.m. |
| Re: Nope. | General Vagueness | 10/14/09 3:02 p.m. |
| Re: Nope. | Bry | 10/14/09 3:33 p.m. |
| Re: Nope. | Metalingus627 | 10/14/09 4:16 p.m. |
| Re: Nope. | Metalingus627 | 10/14/09 4:25 p.m. |
| Re: Nope. | Bry | 10/14/09 4:55 p.m. |
| Re: Nope. | Stephen L. (SoundEffect) | 10/14/09 4:26 p.m. |
| Re: Nope. | General Vagueness | 10/15/09 7:38 p.m. |
| Re: Nope. | Bry | 10/16/09 4:15 a.m. |
| Re: Nope. | General Vagueness | 10/16/09 8:43 a.m. |
| Brutes and Elites are both great | ArteenEsben | 10/13/09 9:49 p.m. |
| Re: Brutes and Elites are both great | T07WRX5 | 10/14/09 9:02 a.m. |
| Re: Brutes and Elites are both great | ArteenEsben | 10/14/09 11:33 a.m. |
| Re: Brutes and Elites are both great | Bry | 10/14/09 11:54 a.m. |
| but brutes are so easy... | Hunt3r | 10/13/09 10:52 p.m. |
| Re: but brutes are so easy... | The More Deluded | 10/14/09 1:34 p.m. |
| Go back and play Halo 1 | jazo | 10/13/09 11:08 p.m. |
| Re: Go back and play Halo 1 | SonofMacPhisto | 10/14/09 8:09 a.m. |
| Re: Go back and play Halo 1 | The More Deluded | 10/15/09 2:13 p.m. |
| Oh please. | Riceatron | 10/15/09 3:16 p.m. |
| Re: Oh please. | Hawaiian Pig | 10/15/09 3:31 p.m. |
| Re: Oh please. | Riceatron | 10/15/09 3:40 p.m. |
| Looking more like a troll everytime I come back... *NM* | The More Deluded | 10/15/09 7:02 p.m. |
| lol i trol u wid mah 1337 leterz | Riceatron | 10/15/09 7:14 p.m. |
| Michael Wincott > Ricatron | THe BS Police | 10/15/09 11:46 p.m. |
| Re: Oh please. | Bry | 10/15/09 3:59 p.m. |
| Re: Go back and play Halo 1 | FyreWulff | 10/15/09 8:04 p.m. |
| Elites > H2 Brutes > H3 Brutes | The BS Police | 10/13/09 11:37 p.m. |
| Re: Brutes > Elites | Rockslider | 10/14/09 5:19 p.m. |
| Re: Brutes > Elites | The BS Police | 10/15/09 1:57 p.m. |
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