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Re: Nice post.
Posted By: Empty Set <spikerags@hotmail.com>Date: 6/10/08 4:11 p.m.

In Response To: Nice post. (yakaman)


: I think it is imperative for the sake of the fiction to assume all Flood,
: including Gravemind were destroyed in the Halo Effect (exception:
: Infection Forms). Otherwise, with what confidence could the Forerunner
: execute their plan? Gravemind might be rendered powerless, but I just
: cannot accept that the Forerunner would overlook a still active Gravemind.
: No bleeping way. What if Gravemind was in a ship with SlipSpace
: capability?

: Put it this way: I'll need really, REALLY concrete evidence that Gravemind
: survived the Halo Effect.

I more or less agree with you (I never really considered anything to the contrary, until I'd read urban's post above), but I'll still play devil's advocate on this.

(Re: the Halos being shielded, I agree with you on that point - I was just positing one explanation for why a/the gravemind might have sought refuge on the ring.)

You're right. There is no concrete evidence that says the Gravemind survived physically from the first Halo firing to the last; and there is evidence to support the idea that the Mind can survive (even if weakened) when the physical core has been destroyed, as we see (or, hear) even after High Charity has been blown to bits.

But there's also no evidence that says it was destroyed in the blast. The only definitive statement we have, either way, on whether or not the Halo blast destroys Flood, is Cortana's rather explicit statement that Halo does NOT kill Flood. Now, Cortana is not infallible; she may have been misreading the data from Halo, or just speaking figuratively, emphasizing for the Chief's benefit that he was about to commit species-wide suicide. Or Bungie could have rewritten their own rules between Cortana's dialog in HCE, and the Forerunner history in H3. (It's entirely possible that the sketchbook version of the Forerunner war, as written during the development of HCE, had to be re-imagined for narrative purposes during H3's development, and that Cortana's statements in the first game are now simply rendered inaccurate.) But with all the dialog and Terminal logs in H3, you would think the Halo's effect on the Flood itself would be clarified. It wasn't.

I see your point: why would the Forerunner take this extreme measure if the Gravemind would be left behind? Just because it "doesn't kill Flood," doesn't mean it won't leave the Flood dead - eventually. Prior to H3 & the Terminal logs, I think the accepted history (based mostly on information give to us by Cortana & GS) was that the Halos wiped out all sentient life, and the Flood slowly died off due to starvation. (We also don't know how long it would take for a gravemind-entity to "starve.") I don't see how anything in Halo 3 has to change that course of events. The Forerunner calculated that the Flood would starve itself to death before any sentient life would be reseeded (or develop independently): the Array would destroy the flood (by the means we had always surmised), just indirectly.

They just didn't count on the gravemind finding some continually renewed source of nourishment... like an artificial biosphere. Like their own fortified artificial biosphere.

Where did "our" Gravemind come from? (Speaking here of the physical venus flytrap antagonist of H2&3.)

1. It developed very quickly during the conflict of 2552: No native sentient life on Delta Halo (Blind Wolf or otherwise), no prior crash landings (by ONI or anyone else) - it would the consist of human & covenant hosts. Seems a stretch, but we saw how quickly they can build a brain form, and if the Mind is simply dormant and awaiting some physical nexus to 'awaken,' I suppose this is plausible.

2. It developed following the containment failure alluded to in the BWU logs. There would have to be some native sentient life on the ring, or visiting sentients from off-ring; or the Flood can consume the native flora... well, it does look like a big angry plant. Whatever it found to eat, it would be roughly 300 years "old" by the time it encounters 117. A few spores escaped due to a mechanical failure and somehow found enough "food" to build a gravemind.

3. It developed elsewhere, and hid itself on 05. The logs note that no "outside agent" has accessed 05 since the rings were fired. What about an inside agent? One that has been there all along?

Again... just playing devil's advocate here. I'm not sure what to think. (And maybe that's the intention.)


Message Index




Replies:

The Smuggler, Part 2?Avateur 6/7/08 4:00 a.m.
     Re: The Smuggler, Part 2?Ze Mse 6/7/08 1:05 p.m.
     Re: The Smuggler, Part 2?Omega 6/7/08 4:26 p.m.
           Re: The Smuggler, Part 2?Avateur 6/7/08 5:28 p.m.
           Re: The Smuggler, Part 2?De Laal 6/7/08 10:22 p.m.
                 Re: The Smuggler, Part 2?De Laal 6/7/08 10:26 p.m.
                 Re: The Smuggler, Part 2?Avateur 6/7/08 10:43 p.m.
                 Correctyakaman 6/8/08 10:39 a.m.
                       Re: CorrectSPARTAN-034 6/8/08 11:01 a.m.
                       Re: CorrectBry 6/8/08 3:00 p.m.
                             Re: Correctyakaman 6/8/08 5:29 p.m.
                                   Re: CorrectBry 6/8/08 6:48 p.m.
                                         Re: CorrectCthulhu117 6/8/08 7:24 p.m.
                                               Re: CorrectBry 6/8/08 8:10 p.m.
                                               Re: CorrectAvateur 6/8/08 9:53 p.m.
                                                     Re: Correctelpolloguapo 6/9/08 10:09 a.m.
                                                           You Suck *NM*Don 6/9/08 11:44 a.m.
                                         No-Clipping FishSonofMacPhisto 6/11/08 12:50 a.m.
                                   Beating that horse, nice and hardDe Laal 6/8/08 11:47 p.m.
                                         Just some speculation...Free Weights 6/9/08 1:48 p.m.
                       Re: Correctasd1070 6/12/08 11:05 p.m.
                             Re: CorrectDirkgently 6/13/08 8:26 a.m.
                                   Re: Correctasd1070 6/15/08 3:41 p.m.
                                         Re: CorrectDirkgently 6/16/08 3:29 a.m.
     Re: The Smuggler, Part 2?General Vagueness 6/9/08 8:56 p.m.
           Sorry about the errorsGeneral Vagueness 6/9/08 8:58 p.m.
           Re: The Smuggler, Part 2?Omega 6/9/08 10:11 p.m.
                 Re: The Smuggler, Part 2?Kurk 6/10/08 12:41 a.m.
                       Re: The Smuggler, Part 2?Speedhuntr 6/10/08 1:29 a.m.
                             Re: The Smuggler, Part 2?Avateur 6/10/08 3:24 a.m.
                                   Re: The Smuggler, Part 2?Urban Reflex 6/10/08 3:52 a.m.
                                         Re: The Smuggler, Part 2?Cthulhu117 6/10/08 5:56 a.m.
                                         Re: The Smuggler, Part 2?yakaman 6/10/08 8:28 a.m.
                                               Re: The Smuggler, Part 2?Urban Reflex 6/10/08 9:22 a.m.
                                         Re: The Smuggler, Part 2?Speedhuntr 6/10/08 11:55 a.m.
                                               Re: The Smuggler, Part 2?Don 6/10/08 12:09 p.m.
                                                     Re: The Smuggler, Part 2?Speedhuntr 6/10/08 12:12 p.m.
                       Halo Effect absolutely kills Floodyakaman 6/10/08 8:23 a.m.
                             Re: Halo Effect absolutely kills FloodEmpty Set 6/10/08 10:44 a.m.
                                   Re: Halo Effect absolutely kills FloodSpeedhuntr 6/10/08 11:52 a.m.
                                         Re: Halo Effect absolutely kills Flood7he grunt w/a plasma pistol 6/10/08 3:11 p.m.
                                   Nice post.yakaman 6/10/08 12:50 p.m.
                                         Re: Nice post.GatchamanUK 6/10/08 1:30 p.m.
                                         Re: Nice post.Empty Set 6/10/08 4:11 p.m.
                                               All right, here's the problem here.Cthulhu117 6/10/08 8:16 p.m.
                                                     Re: All right, here's the problem here.yakaman 6/11/08 8:13 a.m.
                                                     Re: All right, here's the problem here.Empty Set 6/11/08 10:23 a.m.
                                                           Re: All right, here's the problem here.Dirkgently 6/12/08 6:11 p.m.
                                               Re: Nice post.yakaman 6/11/08 8:18 a.m.
                                         Keyes Wasn't a GM FormSonofMacPhisto 6/11/08 12:44 a.m.
                                               Re: Keyes Wasn't a GM Formelpolloguapo 6/11/08 9:59 a.m.
                                         Did GM survive the Array?Capt Spanish 6/13/08 1:37 a.m.
                                               I agree whole-heartedlyyakaman 6/13/08 12:23 p.m.
                                                     Re: I agree whole-heartedlyDHalo 6/13/08 2:52 p.m.
                                                           Re: I agree whole-heartedlyDirkgently 6/13/08 3:32 p.m.
                                                                 Re: I agree whole-heartedlyDHalo 6/13/08 4:03 p.m.
                                                           It absolutely kills Flood, and Gravemind.yakaman 6/13/08 4:33 p.m.
                                                                 Well said *NM*scarab 6/13/08 4:39 p.m.
                                                                 Re: It absolutely kills Flood, and Gravemind.DHalo 6/13/08 4:50 p.m.
                                                                       Halo: Story Evolvedscarab 6/13/08 5:44 p.m.
                                                                             Re: Halo: Story EvolvedDirkgently 6/13/08 6:14 p.m.
                                                                                   No, I misremembered. *NM*scarab 6/14/08 12:35 a.m.
                                                                       Re: It absolutely kills Flood, and Gravemind.Dirkgently 6/13/08 6:06 p.m.
                                                           Re: I agree whole-heartedlyStephen L. (SoundEffect) 6/13/08 8:30 p.m.
                                                                 Heh. It doesn't get more direct than that. *NM*yakaman 6/14/08 7:31 a.m.
                                               Re: Did GM survive the Array?Empty Set 6/13/08 6:30 p.m.
                                                     Re: Did GM survive the Array?DHalo 6/13/08 6:55 p.m.
                                                           Re: Did GM survive the Array?Dirkgently 6/13/08 7:01 p.m.
                                                     Re: Did GM survive the Array?Capt Spanish 6/13/08 7:21 p.m.
                             My opinion's out there on thiselpolloguapo 6/10/08 10:52 a.m.
                             Re: Halo Effect absolutely kills FloodPeptuck 6/10/08 12:03 p.m.
                                   Re: Halo Effect absolutely kills Floodyakaman 6/10/08 12:52 p.m.
                                   Re: Halo Effect absolutely kills Floodelpolloguapo 6/10/08 2:05 p.m.
                                         Re: Halo Effect absolutely kills FloodCthulhu117 6/10/08 8:27 p.m.
                                               Re: Halo Effect absolutely kills Floodelpolloguapo 6/10/08 8:33 p.m.
                                                     Re: Halo Effect absolutely kills FloodCthulhu117 6/10/08 8:51 p.m.
                                                           Re: Halo Effect absolutely kills Floodelpolloguapo 6/10/08 9:00 p.m.
                                                                 Re: Halo Effect absolutely kills FloodFree Weights 6/10/08 11:04 p.m.
                                                                       Halo effect uses Flood telepathy ;-)scarab 6/11/08 1:13 a.m.
                                                                             Re: Halo effect uses Flood telepathy ;-)free weights 6/11/08 8:00 a.m.
                             Re: Halo Effect absolutely kills FloodBry 6/10/08 6:16 p.m.
                                   Is that like being only slightly pregnant? *NM*scarab 6/11/08 1:16 a.m.
                                         HaBry 6/11/08 3:56 a.m.
                                         Re: Is that like being only slightly pregnant?elessar787 6/12/08 12:05 a.m.
                                               All together now: EEEWWWWWWWW *NM*General Vagueness 6/12/08 7:54 a.m.



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